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	<title>Comments on: Microsoft sorta explains E74 errors</title>
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		<title>By: xbox live for free</title>
		<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/04/18/microsoft-sorta-explains-e74-errors/comment-page-1/#comment-114271</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[xbox live for free]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Dec 2009 19:55:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hackaday.com/?p=10428#comment-114271</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi there people, I just wanted to holla and tell you that I found a great site. For those of you who don&#039;t want to spend unwise amounts of money on pay-per-view fees to watch UFC 108 online FREE in full high definition. Better then spending $55.95 on it eh?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi there people, I just wanted to holla and tell you that I found a great site. For those of you who don&#8217;t want to spend unwise amounts of money on pay-per-view fees to watch UFC 108 online FREE in full high definition. Better then spending $55.95 on it eh?</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: valderama</title>
		<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/04/18/microsoft-sorta-explains-e74-errors/comment-page-1/#comment-101809</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[valderama]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Oct 2009 23:31:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hackaday.com/?p=10428#comment-101809</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Okay.  I got some balls.  I pulled the mainboard out of my E74 360.  I used a heat gun to heat up the solder points between the HANA chip and the GPU.  Re-assembled the unit and ... It actually worked.

The bad news is that the fix only worked for ~ 1 month.  I now have another E74 error.  Obviously the solder points have disconnected again.

Fuck Microsoft and their 99 cent X-Clamps.  Piece of shit heat sinks are fucking useless.

The board overheats, flexes, and cracks solder points.  

I&#039;m not spending another dime or minute on these sorry fucking junk boxes anymore.

!!!! ADRIAN !!!!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay.  I got some balls.  I pulled the mainboard out of my E74 360.  I used a heat gun to heat up the solder points between the HANA chip and the GPU.  Re-assembled the unit and &#8230; It actually worked.</p>
<p>The bad news is that the fix only worked for ~ 1 month.  I now have another E74 error.  Obviously the solder points have disconnected again.</p>
<p>Fuck Microsoft and their 99 cent X-Clamps.  Piece of shit heat sinks are fucking useless.</p>
<p>The board overheats, flexes, and cracks solder points.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;m not spending another dime or minute on these sorry fucking junk boxes anymore.</p>
<p>!!!! ADRIAN !!!!</p>
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		<title>By: valderama</title>
		<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/04/18/microsoft-sorta-explains-e74-errors/comment-page-1/#comment-94325</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[valderama]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Sep 2009 09:21:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hackaday.com/?p=10428#comment-94325</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Here we go again.  My HDMI xbox 360 got the E74 error.  I tried replacing the thermal compound on both the CPU and GPU.  But, it was a no go.  

Microsoft uses pathetic heatsink technology on these boxes.  The x-clamps are crap.

I&#039;d like to try and reflow my gpu and scalar solders but frankly I&#039;m more likely to burn down my house, than to achieve such a result.

I think it&#039;s time to consider getting a PS3.  Although, admittedly I have no idea if PS3s have adequate cooling either.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here we go again.  My HDMI xbox 360 got the E74 error.  I tried replacing the thermal compound on both the CPU and GPU.  But, it was a no go.  </p>
<p>Microsoft uses pathetic heatsink technology on these boxes.  The x-clamps are crap.</p>
<p>I&#8217;d like to try and reflow my gpu and scalar solders but frankly I&#8217;m more likely to burn down my house, than to achieve such a result.</p>
<p>I think it&#8217;s time to consider getting a PS3.  Although, admittedly I have no idea if PS3s have adequate cooling either.</p>
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		<title>By: adrian</title>
		<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/04/18/microsoft-sorta-explains-e74-errors/comment-page-1/#comment-84131</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[adrian]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Aug 2009 02:29:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hackaday.com/?p=10428#comment-84131</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[did what i did. purchased xbox 360 ay walmart and exchanged the internals and return it with the outer shell and got all my money back. just scamed walmart lol.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>did what i did. purchased xbox 360 ay walmart and exchanged the internals and return it with the outer shell and got all my money back. just scamed walmart lol.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: xboxfailure</title>
		<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/04/18/microsoft-sorta-explains-e74-errors/comment-page-1/#comment-79259</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[xboxfailure]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 05:06:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hackaday.com/?p=10428#comment-79259</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Unfortunately, E74 decides to show up at my door. Just another Microsoft failure.... And you would think, the king of technology would actually try for once, instead of just going straight for the money unlike trying to put quality work and make customers happy.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unfortunately, E74 decides to show up at my door. Just another Microsoft failure&#8230;. And you would think, the king of technology would actually try for once, instead of just going straight for the money unlike trying to put quality work and make customers happy.</p>
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		<title>By: savage</title>
		<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/04/18/microsoft-sorta-explains-e74-errors/comment-page-1/#comment-78168</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[savage]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Jun 2009 04:42:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hackaday.com/?p=10428#comment-78168</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[what about e73? i revived my xbox360 from 3rod by removing the x clamps and adding new thermal compound..i started up and gave me e73 on the screen.. what do i do?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>what about e73? i revived my xbox360 from 3rod by removing the x clamps and adding new thermal compound..i started up and gave me e73 on the screen.. what do i do?</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/04/18/microsoft-sorta-explains-e74-errors/comment-page-1/#comment-77667</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mike]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:08:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hackaday.com/?p=10428#comment-77667</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Lucky me, I just got an E74 yesterday]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lucky me, I just got an E74 yesterday</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: arian</title>
		<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/04/18/microsoft-sorta-explains-e74-errors/comment-page-1/#comment-76864</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[arian]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 May 2009 18:52:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hackaday.com/?p=10428#comment-76864</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[i just got it luckily though 3 year warranty for it!!!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i just got it luckily though 3 year warranty for it!!!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: tmbinc</title>
		<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/04/18/microsoft-sorta-explains-e74-errors/comment-page-1/#comment-71213</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[tmbinc]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Apr 2009 14:29:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hackaday.com/?p=10428#comment-71213</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[E-74 is a &quot;EDRAM failure&quot; (see http://www.free60.org/wiki/error_codes, which has a quote from a microsoft engineer - see the famous http://pictures.xbox-scene.com/xbox360/bsod/xbox360_bsod_02.jpg picture, which is from E3 2005(!), if I&#039;m not mistaken.) EDRAM is the RAM chip on the GPU package, which is connected to the GPU with a very high speed bus. This bus requires a complex training/setup phase, in which a known texture (in GDDR3) gets rendered (to EDRAM) and then resolved back into (GDDR3) memory. Then a &quot;checksum&quot; on both ends is monitored. If the checksum doesn&#039;t match, certain values are tweaked (possibly some delays or phase adjustments - the usual &quot;brute force&quot; approach), until said CRC do match. If this process fails for a number of retries, you get E74.

Now, how does that relate to RROD? The usual RROD case is that the memory sizing fails. This happens quite early in the boot process, when a &quot;virtual machine&quot; is invoked which initializes memory (and a number of other things). The most likely reason for the memory initialization to fail is that one of the address or data lines doesn&#039;t work reliable anymore. There have been many speculations about the cause of this (see http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=223 for example, and also see how people have been able to make the console working again by applying stress to the pins using XClamps etc.), but let&#039;s just say that they don&#039;t work reliable and that it&#039;s probably also affected by temperature in a very complex way.  The memory initialization happens about ~1s after you press the power button, and takes approx. 3 seconds - newer consoles take a bit longer here.

The EDRAM-initialization happens a bit later - usually right before the bootup animation starts. So, why do we see an increasement in those failures now? Possibly not because the EDRAM gets loose, or the connection fails. The more likely reason is that the actual texture memory  (GDDR3) is damaged in a way that the test texture is read incorrectly, and thus the checksums don&#039;t match - even if the GPU and EDRAM is working properly. So basically both E-74 and the traditional RROD mean the same thing - the memory doesn&#039;t work.

I can only speculate why the initial memory init doesn&#039;t catch this case - one of the reasons could be that the memory init runs at a completely different temperature level. The CPU is still running at quarter speed, the GPU clocks JUST got initialized into full speed. Temperature (of CPU,GPU,EDRAM) between this point and a few seconds later are likely to change in a range of 10 Kelvin or more - that&#039;s a lot. My guess is that the thermal expansion causes the memory to ultimately fail, but not as early in the boot process as a RROD. 

Why is E-74 a new phenomena? I don&#039;t know. To be honest, I haven&#039;t checked the exact implementation in a more recent kernel, so things might have changed here. E-74 itself isn&#039;t a new thing, but the fact that so many users are facing it is.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>E-74 is a &#8220;EDRAM failure&#8221; (see <a href="http://www.free60.org/wiki/error_codes" rel="nofollow">http://www.free60.org/wiki/error_codes</a>, which has a quote from a microsoft engineer &#8211; see the famous <a href="http://pictures.xbox-scene.com/xbox360/bsod/xbox360_bsod_02.jpg" rel="nofollow">http://pictures.xbox-scene.com/xbox360/bsod/xbox360_bsod_02.jpg</a> picture, which is from E3 2005(!), if I&#8217;m not mistaken.) EDRAM is the RAM chip on the GPU package, which is connected to the GPU with a very high speed bus. This bus requires a complex training/setup phase, in which a known texture (in GDDR3) gets rendered (to EDRAM) and then resolved back into (GDDR3) memory. Then a &#8220;checksum&#8221; on both ends is monitored. If the checksum doesn&#8217;t match, certain values are tweaked (possibly some delays or phase adjustments &#8211; the usual &#8220;brute force&#8221; approach), until said CRC do match. If this process fails for a number of retries, you get E74.</p>
<p>Now, how does that relate to RROD? The usual RROD case is that the memory sizing fails. This happens quite early in the boot process, when a &#8220;virtual machine&#8221; is invoked which initializes memory (and a number of other things). The most likely reason for the memory initialization to fail is that one of the address or data lines doesn&#8217;t work reliable anymore. There have been many speculations about the cause of this (see <a href="http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=223" rel="nofollow">http://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?p=223</a> for example, and also see how people have been able to make the console working again by applying stress to the pins using XClamps etc.), but let&#8217;s just say that they don&#8217;t work reliable and that it&#8217;s probably also affected by temperature in a very complex way.  The memory initialization happens about ~1s after you press the power button, and takes approx. 3 seconds &#8211; newer consoles take a bit longer here.</p>
<p>The EDRAM-initialization happens a bit later &#8211; usually right before the bootup animation starts. So, why do we see an increasement in those failures now? Possibly not because the EDRAM gets loose, or the connection fails. The more likely reason is that the actual texture memory  (GDDR3) is damaged in a way that the test texture is read incorrectly, and thus the checksums don&#8217;t match &#8211; even if the GPU and EDRAM is working properly. So basically both E-74 and the traditional RROD mean the same thing &#8211; the memory doesn&#8217;t work.</p>
<p>I can only speculate why the initial memory init doesn&#8217;t catch this case &#8211; one of the reasons could be that the memory init runs at a completely different temperature level. The CPU is still running at quarter speed, the GPU clocks JUST got initialized into full speed. Temperature (of CPU,GPU,EDRAM) between this point and a few seconds later are likely to change in a range of 10 Kelvin or more &#8211; that&#8217;s a lot. My guess is that the thermal expansion causes the memory to ultimately fail, but not as early in the boot process as a RROD. </p>
<p>Why is E-74 a new phenomena? I don&#8217;t know. To be honest, I haven&#8217;t checked the exact implementation in a more recent kernel, so things might have changed here. E-74 itself isn&#8217;t a new thing, but the fact that so many users are facing it is.</p>
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		<title>By: Wwhat</title>
		<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/04/18/microsoft-sorta-explains-e74-errors/comment-page-1/#comment-71190</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Wwhat]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Apr 2009 10:27:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hackaday.com/?p=10428#comment-71190</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I wonder how many people are discouraged from buying a 360 with this constant stream of failure news, for years.
If I was a console user I&#039;d certainly feel uneasy about the whole thing, it&#039;s all well and good to have a warranty but that&#039;s such hassle and it&#039;s a wait often, and in some cases you wait weeks, then get a device back only to see it fail again a week later, or even arrive in a still broken state.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wonder how many people are discouraged from buying a 360 with this constant stream of failure news, for years.<br />
If I was a console user I&#8217;d certainly feel uneasy about the whole thing, it&#8217;s all well and good to have a warranty but that&#8217;s such hassle and it&#8217;s a wait often, and in some cases you wait weeks, then get a device back only to see it fail again a week later, or even arrive in a still broken state.</p>
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		<title>By: BigD145</title>
		<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/04/18/microsoft-sorta-explains-e74-errors/comment-page-1/#comment-71161</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[BigD145]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Apr 2009 01:24:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hackaday.com/?p=10428#comment-71161</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Or they could just go back to pins and user replaceable chips.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Or they could just go back to pins and user replaceable chips.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: lando greer</title>
		<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/04/18/microsoft-sorta-explains-e74-errors/comment-page-1/#comment-71143</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[lando greer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Apr 2009 20:51:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hackaday.com/?p=10428#comment-71143</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[just sent in my repair request, yay! now i can get rid of my old 360 i had sitting in my closet.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>just sent in my repair request, yay! now i can get rid of my old 360 i had sitting in my closet.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Louis II</title>
		<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/04/18/microsoft-sorta-explains-e74-errors/comment-page-1/#comment-71139</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Louis II]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Apr 2009 19:32:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hackaday.com/?p=10428#comment-71139</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In other hardware failures, my macbook power cable almost caught fire after it started melting, but it&#039;s a full 3 years old.  It is, however, a problem that is not exactly rare to have.
The new power adapter cable is a bit stronger, thankfully, so I think they knew.

Anyway... burning hardware... woo!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In other hardware failures, my macbook power cable almost caught fire after it started melting, but it&#8217;s a full 3 years old.  It is, however, a problem that is not exactly rare to have.<br />
The new power adapter cable is a bit stronger, thankfully, so I think they knew.</p>
<p>Anyway&#8230; burning hardware&#8230; woo!</p>
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		<title>By: Umi</title>
		<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/04/18/microsoft-sorta-explains-e74-errors/comment-page-1/#comment-71135</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Umi]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Apr 2009 19:01:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hackaday.com/?p=10428#comment-71135</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Enjoy your thermal runaway]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Enjoy your thermal runaway</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: liam</title>
		<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/04/18/microsoft-sorta-explains-e74-errors/comment-page-1/#comment-71118</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[liam]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Apr 2009 16:52:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hackaday.com/?p=10428#comment-71118</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Personally, I think adding extra cooling is like sticking a turbo on your car to &#039;fix&#039; binding brakes. If thermal gradients are causing problems, then adding more cooling could be just as likely to make things worse.

The xbox has well documented hardware problems, true. But everyone I know who has encountered such a problem has had a repair or replacement outside of warranty without question. I&#039;ve never had to deal with xbox support, but I&#039;ve had similar good service for other MS hardware (most recently a bluetooth mouse). I wish I could have said the same for my PSX, which was only a month old when the video  output croaked, not to mention the DRE-plagued PS2. I&#039;m no lover of MS, but when it comes to support I have found them hard to fault. I think that the extension of the scope of their out-of-warranty replacement policy serves to underline this point.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Personally, I think adding extra cooling is like sticking a turbo on your car to &#8216;fix&#8217; binding brakes. If thermal gradients are causing problems, then adding more cooling could be just as likely to make things worse.</p>
<p>The xbox has well documented hardware problems, true. But everyone I know who has encountered such a problem has had a repair or replacement outside of warranty without question. I&#8217;ve never had to deal with xbox support, but I&#8217;ve had similar good service for other MS hardware (most recently a bluetooth mouse). I wish I could have said the same for my PSX, which was only a month old when the video  output croaked, not to mention the DRE-plagued PS2. I&#8217;m no lover of MS, but when it comes to support I have found them hard to fault. I think that the extension of the scope of their out-of-warranty replacement policy serves to underline this point.</p>
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