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	<title>Comments on: First hovering ornithopter NAV</title>
	<atom:link href="http://hackaday.com/2009/07/01/first-hovering-ornithopter-nav/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/07/01/first-hovering-ornithopter-nav/</link>
	<description>Fresh hacks every day</description>
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	<item>
		<title>By: GeneralERA</title>
		<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/07/01/first-hovering-ornithopter-nav/comment-page-1/#comment-106857</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[GeneralERA]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:35:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hackaday.com/?p=12296#comment-106857</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@Dieggo:

The internet you just posted on was created from funds that were dispersed by DARPA (Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency), a US department of defense agency, the same agency that funded this work. If you don&#039;t see the peacetime implications and uses of this technology (along with the internet), at least the US military does...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Dieggo:</p>
<p>The internet you just posted on was created from funds that were dispersed by DARPA (Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency), a US department of defense agency, the same agency that funded this work. If you don&#8217;t see the peacetime implications and uses of this technology (along with the internet), at least the US military does&#8230;</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Dieggo Bouvier</title>
		<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/07/01/first-hovering-ornithopter-nav/comment-page-1/#comment-80864</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dieggo Bouvier]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 21:23:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hackaday.com/?p=12296#comment-80864</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well, this enterprise makes some war artifacts, see their page. I don&#039;t like this, and I don&#039;t think that a site that shows hacks open designs and this kind of things must promote this.
I don&#039;t like things to kill other people, even if it&#039;s a little plane to spy the &quot;enemy&quot;, it is designed as a war artifact. I must repeat, see their page.

Regards.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, this enterprise makes some war artifacts, see their page. I don&#8217;t like this, and I don&#8217;t think that a site that shows hacks open designs and this kind of things must promote this.<br />
I don&#8217;t like things to kill other people, even if it&#8217;s a little plane to spy the &#8220;enemy&#8221;, it is designed as a war artifact. I must repeat, see their page.</p>
<p>Regards.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Dan Fruzzetti</title>
		<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/07/01/first-hovering-ornithopter-nav/comment-page-1/#comment-80386</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dan Fruzzetti]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2009 19:43:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hackaday.com/?p=12296#comment-80386</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@godd:

absolutely understood what you meant to say, but in case others didn&#039;t i wanted to clarify it.  i think you have a point about reciprocation as opposed to rotary motors, but i had a couple thoughts on that.

first, you can use a solenoid or an electric motor arranged like a voice coil for excursion to get the reciprocating motion you want.

second, a simple sliding mechanism can be used to convert rotary motion into reciprocating motion (as the reverse happens in your gas engine, it should be pretty easy to see).  you&#039;re right, though, that you&#039;re going to lose some of that motor efficiency as not as much of the output will be converted to thrust.

At the same time, clever use of the wings could up the efficiency pretty well -- think like swimming.  The wings would twist during the wing recovery phase so they gave almost no downward thrust.

I&#039;m still waiting to see when they can add a second joint in the wing more like a bird - they&#039;re not just for folding the wings up!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@godd:</p>
<p>absolutely understood what you meant to say, but in case others didn&#8217;t i wanted to clarify it.  i think you have a point about reciprocation as opposed to rotary motors, but i had a couple thoughts on that.</p>
<p>first, you can use a solenoid or an electric motor arranged like a voice coil for excursion to get the reciprocating motion you want.</p>
<p>second, a simple sliding mechanism can be used to convert rotary motion into reciprocating motion (as the reverse happens in your gas engine, it should be pretty easy to see).  you&#8217;re right, though, that you&#8217;re going to lose some of that motor efficiency as not as much of the output will be converted to thrust.</p>
<p>At the same time, clever use of the wings could up the efficiency pretty well &#8212; think like swimming.  The wings would twist during the wing recovery phase so they gave almost no downward thrust.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m still waiting to see when they can add a second joint in the wing more like a bird &#8211; they&#8217;re not just for folding the wings up!</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Godd</title>
		<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/07/01/first-hovering-ornithopter-nav/comment-page-1/#comment-80176</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Godd]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Jul 2009 03:36:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hackaday.com/?p=12296#comment-80176</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Also, the pic isn&#039;t down. The birdy looking thing is the craft. Just with camouflage. Ha

Also, one would think that a reciprocating motor, you&#039;d lose alot of energy. Specifically one half. You&#039;d have to not only power the piston in one direction but slow it down from the opposite direction. With a cranked motor, you only have to supply energy to maintain the rotation. You still have loss from the reciprocation of the crank, but with the design they use, all of that goes to thrust.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also, the pic isn&#8217;t down. The birdy looking thing is the craft. Just with camouflage. Ha</p>
<p>Also, one would think that a reciprocating motor, you&#8217;d lose alot of energy. Specifically one half. You&#8217;d have to not only power the piston in one direction but slow it down from the opposite direction. With a cranked motor, you only have to supply energy to maintain the rotation. You still have loss from the reciprocation of the crank, but with the design they use, all of that goes to thrust.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Godd</title>
		<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/07/01/first-hovering-ornithopter-nav/comment-page-1/#comment-80173</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Godd]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Jul 2009 03:24:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hackaday.com/?p=12296#comment-80173</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@cclaan

Damn, it was pretty nifty looking. Like a big headed Humming Bird with plumage.

And yeah, it was battery powered. Most likely Li-po. For obvious reasons. Ha. 

@Dan Fruzzetti

Ha, sorry. I&#039;m used to gas powered propulsion. (i.e. controls for increasing/decreasing throttle as to a direct relationship to increasing/decreasing thrust). But you understood what I meant to say.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@cclaan</p>
<p>Damn, it was pretty nifty looking. Like a big headed Humming Bird with plumage.</p>
<p>And yeah, it was battery powered. Most likely Li-po. For obvious reasons. Ha. </p>
<p>@Dan Fruzzetti</p>
<p>Ha, sorry. I&#8217;m used to gas powered propulsion. (i.e. controls for increasing/decreasing throttle as to a direct relationship to increasing/decreasing thrust). But you understood what I meant to say.</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: cclaan</title>
		<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/07/01/first-hovering-ornithopter-nav/comment-page-1/#comment-80094</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[cclaan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 17:21:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hackaday.com/?p=12296#comment-80094</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@godd looks like they took down that picture... 

is there a battery on that thing? or is it tethered.. i can&#039;t make it out from the video.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@godd looks like they took down that picture&#8230; </p>
<p>is there a battery on that thing? or is it tethered.. i can&#8217;t make it out from the video.</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Dan Fruzzetti</title>
		<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/07/01/first-hovering-ornithopter-nav/comment-page-1/#comment-80082</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dan Fruzzetti]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 15:38:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hackaday.com/?p=12296#comment-80082</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@ godd: Throttle?  You intend to say for thrust.

For the rest of you - as already mentioned this is great for aerodynamic research; the closer we get to nature&#039;s flight (or any) techniques, the better we understand how to improve our own.

because we do all agree: nature kicks man&#039;s ass at engineering.  so man has a tendency to try and learn from nature&#039;s ridiculous talent.

It&#039;s fantastic.  Once we figure out how to make an engine that natively reciprocates (take out the crankshaft and hook directly into the piston?), there might even be room for competition between types.

perhaps an engine that natively reciprocates would need two fuels, one that combusts quickly and one that does it slowly; then if you had a simple weighted piston with combustion chambers above and below, you could speed or slow the &#039;flapping&#039; of wings by varying the mixture of fuels in each trip of the piston.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ godd: Throttle?  You intend to say for thrust.</p>
<p>For the rest of you &#8211; as already mentioned this is great for aerodynamic research; the closer we get to nature&#8217;s flight (or any) techniques, the better we understand how to improve our own.</p>
<p>because we do all agree: nature kicks man&#8217;s ass at engineering.  so man has a tendency to try and learn from nature&#8217;s ridiculous talent.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s fantastic.  Once we figure out how to make an engine that natively reciprocates (take out the crankshaft and hook directly into the piston?), there might even be room for competition between types.</p>
<p>perhaps an engine that natively reciprocates would need two fuels, one that combusts quickly and one that does it slowly; then if you had a simple weighted piston with combustion chambers above and below, you could speed or slow the &#8216;flapping&#8217; of wings by varying the mixture of fuels in each trip of the piston.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: lessermilton</title>
		<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/07/01/first-hovering-ornithopter-nav/comment-page-1/#comment-80069</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[lessermilton]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 12:21:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hackaday.com/?p=12296#comment-80069</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;The tendency for flighted vehicles is the more unstable the craft the more overall maneuverability the craft has.&quot;

I guess that makes sense and also seems like a bit of chaos theory could apply.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The tendency for flighted vehicles is the more unstable the craft the more overall maneuverability the craft has.&#8221;</p>
<p>I guess that makes sense and also seems like a bit of chaos theory could apply.</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Godd</title>
		<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/07/01/first-hovering-ornithopter-nav/comment-page-1/#comment-80037</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Godd]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 05:50:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hackaday.com/?p=12296#comment-80037</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@jive

The tendency for flighted vehicles is the more unstable the craft the more overall maneuverability the craft has.

In R/C planes &amp; helis, sport planes are far less stable than trainers and helis are less stable than sport planes.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@jive</p>
<p>The tendency for flighted vehicles is the more unstable the craft the more overall maneuverability the craft has.</p>
<p>In R/C planes &amp; helis, sport planes are far less stable than trainers and helis are less stable than sport planes.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Godd</title>
		<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/07/01/first-hovering-ornithopter-nav/comment-page-1/#comment-80035</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Godd]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 05:45:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hackaday.com/?p=12296#comment-80035</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I found a pic at http://www.avav.com/uas/adc/nano/

No mechanical details, but by the looks of it, I&#039;d be willing to bet that the wings themselves provide no more control than throttle.

I would venture to guess that it uses some sort of internal pendulum to control CG, and an internal dual axis gyro controlling it with a R/C override.

Just a guess.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I found a pic at <a href="http://www.avav.com/uas/adc/nano/" rel="nofollow">http://www.avav.com/uas/adc/nano/</a></p>
<p>No mechanical details, but by the looks of it, I&#8217;d be willing to bet that the wings themselves provide no more control than throttle.</p>
<p>I would venture to guess that it uses some sort of internal pendulum to control CG, and an internal dual axis gyro controlling it with a R/C override.</p>
<p>Just a guess.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Kyle McDonald</title>
		<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/07/01/first-hovering-ornithopter-nav/comment-page-1/#comment-80033</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kyle McDonald]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 04:43:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hackaday.com/?p=12296#comment-80033</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@brad: yeah, I wonder why they muted the audio track...?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@brad: yeah, I wonder why they muted the audio track&#8230;?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Brad (halconnen)</title>
		<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/07/01/first-hovering-ornithopter-nav/comment-page-1/#comment-80030</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brad (halconnen)]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 03:28:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hackaday.com/?p=12296#comment-80030</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[but can it twitter?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>but can it twitter?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: m1ke</title>
		<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/07/01/first-hovering-ornithopter-nav/comment-page-1/#comment-80019</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[m1ke]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 01:55:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hackaday.com/?p=12296#comment-80019</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[ornithopters will help in aerodynamic research, and from there in better and more efficient wing forms for planes and helicopters..]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ornithopters will help in aerodynamic research, and from there in better and more efficient wing forms for planes and helicopters..</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: m1ke</title>
		<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/07/01/first-hovering-ornithopter-nav/comment-page-1/#comment-80018</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[m1ke]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 01:48:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hackaday.com/?p=12296#comment-80018</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@ jive

Your helis are more controllable, but are also a much simple design, spinning wings the pitch.

a stander heli in nothing has to do with evolution of flight, you can just extend heli tech to a certain point, were the ornithopters resemble the technique used by insects, insects crash and don&#039;t fall, they can fly fast or hover slow, change direction in a blink of an eye, this is great news, and in some time or in many years to come it will help in the evolution of flight and better understanding of aerodynamics...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ jive</p>
<p>Your helis are more controllable, but are also a much simple design, spinning wings the pitch.</p>
<p>a stander heli in nothing has to do with evolution of flight, you can just extend heli tech to a certain point, were the ornithopters resemble the technique used by insects, insects crash and don&#8217;t fall, they can fly fast or hover slow, change direction in a blink of an eye, this is great news, and in some time or in many years to come it will help in the evolution of flight and better understanding of aerodynamics&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: 36chambers</title>
		<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/07/01/first-hovering-ornithopter-nav/comment-page-1/#comment-80010</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[36chambers]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 00:39:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hackaday.com/?p=12296#comment-80010</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Here comes the meshing of technology a biology. I now won&#039;t be able to tell if this hummingbird is real or is a robot. Great!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here comes the meshing of technology a biology. I now won&#8217;t be able to tell if this hummingbird is real or is a robot. Great!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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