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	<title>Comments on: Home power monitoring</title>
	<atom:link href="http://hackaday.com/2009/07/05/home-power-monitoring/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/07/05/home-power-monitoring/</link>
	<description>Fresh hacks every day</description>
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		<title>By: Gopal</title>
		<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/07/05/home-power-monitoring/comment-page-1/#comment-437347</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Gopal]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Aug 2011 17:09:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hackaday.com/?p=12445#comment-437347</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for the complete writeup. Excellent reference. I am looking to build an exact replica.
Are there any more efficient ways of tapping into the main incoming power lines from the MCB?
Do u know of any options?
Thanks
Gopal]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the complete writeup. Excellent reference. I am looking to build an exact replica.<br />
Are there any more efficient ways of tapping into the main incoming power lines from the MCB?<br />
Do u know of any options?<br />
Thanks<br />
Gopal</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Energy monitor</title>
		<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/07/05/home-power-monitoring/comment-page-1/#comment-172519</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Energy monitor]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Aug 2010 17:48:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hackaday.com/?p=12445#comment-172519</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That is one way of getting it done. Home monitors are getting more cheap as time goes by. the TED is a more expensive option considering how long it has been around.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That is one way of getting it done. Home monitors are getting more cheap as time goes by. the TED is a more expensive option considering how long it has been around.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Trystan</title>
		<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/07/05/home-power-monitoring/comment-page-1/#comment-87254</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Trystan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Aug 2009 23:35:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hackaday.com/?p=12445#comment-87254</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hello John

I just came across your power monitoring project. Great work! The online graphing is ace! 

I&#039;ve been working on the same thing using a current transformer and an arduino. I think I may have got around this issue of not measuring voltage. Im getting good results by &#039;synthesising&#039; the voltage waveform infering it from the current waveform.

I&#039;ve put all the details up here:
http://openenergymonitor.org/emon/node/28

I haven&#039;t done any internet connectivity stuff yet but will do soon, your work will definitely help me out!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello John</p>
<p>I just came across your power monitoring project. Great work! The online graphing is ace! </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been working on the same thing using a current transformer and an arduino. I think I may have got around this issue of not measuring voltage. Im getting good results by &#8216;synthesising&#8217; the voltage waveform infering it from the current waveform.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve put all the details up here:<br />
<a href="http://openenergymonitor.org/emon/node/28" rel="nofollow">http://openenergymonitor.org/emon/node/28</a></p>
<p>I haven&#8217;t done any internet connectivity stuff yet but will do soon, your work will definitely help me out!</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: john</title>
		<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/07/05/home-power-monitoring/comment-page-1/#comment-81305</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[john]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 13 Jul 2009 01:31:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hackaday.com/?p=12445#comment-81305</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[For anyone interested I&#039;ve added some info regarding accuracy as well as
running through some tests to see how accurate the 
system is for different devices with different power
factors.

http://jarv.org/pwrmon.shtml#accuracy]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For anyone interested I&#8217;ve added some info regarding accuracy as well as<br />
running through some tests to see how accurate the<br />
system is for different devices with different power<br />
factors.</p>
<p><a href="http://jarv.org/pwrmon.shtml#accuracy" rel="nofollow">http://jarv.org/pwrmon.shtml#accuracy</a></p>
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		<title>By: john</title>
		<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/07/05/home-power-monitoring/comment-page-1/#comment-80756</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[john]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Jul 2009 01:24:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hackaday.com/?p=12445#comment-80756</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@tw: I think ill try to measure the voltage as well and see what I can do for a more accurate measurement. I&#039;m pretty sure i have an extra transformer lying around and i don&#039;t think it will be hard to rig it up next my electrical box.


@roman: thanks for the insight into energy detective, it sounds you guys have a great product. think my next step for this project is going to see if I can incorporate voltage measurements and continue to use the kill-a-watt as a calibration tool.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@tw: I think ill try to measure the voltage as well and see what I can do for a more accurate measurement. I&#8217;m pretty sure i have an extra transformer lying around and i don&#8217;t think it will be hard to rig it up next my electrical box.</p>
<p>@roman: thanks for the insight into energy detective, it sounds you guys have a great product. think my next step for this project is going to see if I can incorporate voltage measurements and continue to use the kill-a-watt as a calibration tool.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: robocat</title>
		<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/07/05/home-power-monitoring/comment-page-1/#comment-80742</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[robocat]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 23:37:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hackaday.com/?p=12445#comment-80742</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@tw - thanks for the links. Using a cheap AC clamp is a really good idea. I love the overkill of the second one!

I presume it would be realtively easy to add voltage measurement, with a step-down transformer plugged into any wall socket (transformer for isolation from mains - a spare AC wallwart should be fine; try to pick a socket on a circuit with low load; if you have more than one phase then just presume voltage imbalance between phases is insignificant).

Use the arduino to find the voltage phase by detecting -ve to +ve zero crossing (maybe need an RC filter to remove noise?).

You could also measure the voltage if you use the ADC to measure the step-down voltage reading (maybe need voltage divider depending on transformer output voltage). Calibrate the stepdown voltage readings against a mains voltage reading taken using a multimeter.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@tw &#8211; thanks for the links. Using a cheap AC clamp is a really good idea. I love the overkill of the second one!</p>
<p>I presume it would be realtively easy to add voltage measurement, with a step-down transformer plugged into any wall socket (transformer for isolation from mains &#8211; a spare AC wallwart should be fine; try to pick a socket on a circuit with low load; if you have more than one phase then just presume voltage imbalance between phases is insignificant).</p>
<p>Use the arduino to find the voltage phase by detecting -ve to +ve zero crossing (maybe need an RC filter to remove noise?).</p>
<p>You could also measure the voltage if you use the ADC to measure the step-down voltage reading (maybe need voltage divider depending on transformer output voltage). Calibrate the stepdown voltage readings against a mains voltage reading taken using a multimeter.</p>
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		<title>By: Roman</title>
		<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/07/05/home-power-monitoring/comment-page-1/#comment-80676</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Roman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 16:25:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hackaday.com/?p=12445#comment-80676</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There should be a red dot on one side of the CT&#039;s, But the main thing is you just want to make sure the polarity matches from your outputs. I&#039;ve seen them mis-marked at factory, rarely but it does happen. Just put a volt meter on the CT&#039;s and make sure your ground is actually ground and not other way around. I can&#039;t tell from the picture and I don&#039;t see the schematic of how you have it wired to your A/D converter but like I said basically just make sure your polarity is right.

Reguarding the power factor :) there is magic that happens in backround but it&#039;s nothing that magical just a matter of collecting the data and doing the propper calculations. Our system takes into the account voltage and phase factors. Though normaly a home is a single phase feed, in large appartment complexes and high-risers they sometimes use a single-derived from 3-phase power. That&#039;s where it gets messy. Your voltage between phases is 208v not 240v so you have to account for that difference. Also as vic mentioned the most critical part of the system is the calibraton. :D Keeping a stable 200Amp load so you can calibrate is not an easy task. Also you have to remember there are two types of loads, capacitive and resistive. 

-Roman]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There should be a red dot on one side of the CT&#8217;s, But the main thing is you just want to make sure the polarity matches from your outputs. I&#8217;ve seen them mis-marked at factory, rarely but it does happen. Just put a volt meter on the CT&#8217;s and make sure your ground is actually ground and not other way around. I can&#8217;t tell from the picture and I don&#8217;t see the schematic of how you have it wired to your A/D converter but like I said basically just make sure your polarity is right.</p>
<p>Reguarding the power factor :) there is magic that happens in backround but it&#8217;s nothing that magical just a matter of collecting the data and doing the propper calculations. Our system takes into the account voltage and phase factors. Though normaly a home is a single phase feed, in large appartment complexes and high-risers they sometimes use a single-derived from 3-phase power. That&#8217;s where it gets messy. Your voltage between phases is 208v not 240v so you have to account for that difference. Also as vic mentioned the most critical part of the system is the calibraton. :D Keeping a stable 200Amp load so you can calibrate is not an easy task. Also you have to remember there are two types of loads, capacitive and resistive. </p>
<p>-Roman</p>
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		<title>By: john</title>
		<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/07/05/home-power-monitoring/comment-page-1/#comment-80662</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[john]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 14:51:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hackaday.com/?p=12445#comment-80662</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@roman d - interesting, what direction do you mean by &quot;right&quot;, does this picture look correct?
http://jarv.org/power/pwr_arduino.png. 

From the data I&#039;m collecting it seems about right, but then again I don&#039;t have a variety of different types of loads with varying power factors.  From the comments so far I&#039;m guessing then that theenergydetective has the same problems unless there is some magic happening in their setup that I don&#039;t understand :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@roman d &#8211; interesting, what direction do you mean by &#8220;right&#8221;, does this picture look correct?<br />
<a href="http://jarv.org/power/pwr_arduino.png" rel="nofollow">http://jarv.org/power/pwr_arduino.png</a>. </p>
<p>From the data I&#8217;m collecting it seems about right, but then again I don&#8217;t have a variety of different types of loads with varying power factors.  From the comments so far I&#8217;m guessing then that theenergydetective has the same problems unless there is some magic happening in their setup that I don&#8217;t understand :)</p>
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		<title>By: Roman D</title>
		<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/07/05/home-power-monitoring/comment-page-1/#comment-80658</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Roman D]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 13:50:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hackaday.com/?p=12445#comment-80658</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@John.

:)  You can not calculate anything without knowing the instantaneous voltage and power draw at same time. That&#039;s what vic was trying to explain. The powerfactor is a phase relationship of voltage to power. For the most time you&#039;ll actually be pretty low on the powerfactor, somwhere in 75-95% range. It&#039;s unlikely that you&#039;ll be at a 100% powerfactor ever, the capacitance in the powerlines cause loses and there are also a lot of other forces involved. The dynamics of power in a typical home is a lot more then what most people realize. Depending on where you live in the US. Your voltage can swing 20-30v. That&#039;s a lot of voltage not to account for in the calculations. I also wanted to point out to make sure that you have the CT&#039;s pointed in the right diraction. Otherwise current in one of the incoming lines your measuring will be subtracting from the other. 

-Roman D]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@John.</p>
<p>:)  You can not calculate anything without knowing the instantaneous voltage and power draw at same time. That&#8217;s what vic was trying to explain. The powerfactor is a phase relationship of voltage to power. For the most time you&#8217;ll actually be pretty low on the powerfactor, somwhere in 75-95% range. It&#8217;s unlikely that you&#8217;ll be at a 100% powerfactor ever, the capacitance in the powerlines cause loses and there are also a lot of other forces involved. The dynamics of power in a typical home is a lot more then what most people realize. Depending on where you live in the US. Your voltage can swing 20-30v. That&#8217;s a lot of voltage not to account for in the calculations. I also wanted to point out to make sure that you have the CT&#8217;s pointed in the right diraction. Otherwise current in one of the incoming lines your measuring will be subtracting from the other. </p>
<p>-Roman D</p>
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		<title>By: Rado</title>
		<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/07/05/home-power-monitoring/comment-page-1/#comment-80638</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rado]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 08:44:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hackaday.com/?p=12445#comment-80638</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@John:
&quot;I’m interested if people think it’s possible at all to measure power, compensating for power factor and whatnot, by simply using CTs on the mains&quot;

It is not possible by using only a CT, with a CT you can only measure current. If you also measure the voltage then all said above is possible.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@John:<br />
&#8220;I’m interested if people think it’s possible at all to measure power, compensating for power factor and whatnot, by simply using CTs on the mains&#8221;</p>
<p>It is not possible by using only a CT, with a CT you can only measure current. If you also measure the voltage then all said above is possible.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: tw</title>
		<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/07/05/home-power-monitoring/comment-page-1/#comment-80620</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[tw]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 04:22:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hackaday.com/?p=12445#comment-80620</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Seen this kind of hack before; the most interesting part is the use of the arduino (which I approve of highly).

This one is cheaper (because of the eth shield &amp; wrt) but doesn&#039;t allow you to use your own servers:
http://www.instructables.com/id/real_time_web_based_household_power_usage_monitor/

This one is just over the top.
http://www.kondra.com/circuit/circuit.html (not too much info here, saw on /. circa 2005)

As far as making this easier on the software side, can you make a leaky integrator in analog space and just sample the result of that?  If you make the filter period long enough (longer than 1/60th of a second), it&#039;ll do your RMS averaging for you, assuming the CT output is rectified.

Your other option is actually doing integration in software (which would be the same thing as the above filtering, except requiring cpu cycles).

I think it&#039;s safe to assume that your line voltage will be 230 V, 3 phase within ~3% (when mine varies outside that range, the power company gets pissed at me)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seen this kind of hack before; the most interesting part is the use of the arduino (which I approve of highly).</p>
<p>This one is cheaper (because of the eth shield &amp; wrt) but doesn&#8217;t allow you to use your own servers:<br />
<a href="http://www.instructables.com/id/real_time_web_based_household_power_usage_monitor/" rel="nofollow">http://www.instructables.com/id/real_time_web_based_household_power_usage_monitor/</a></p>
<p>This one is just over the top.<br />
<a href="http://www.kondra.com/circuit/circuit.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.kondra.com/circuit/circuit.html</a> (not too much info here, saw on /. circa 2005)</p>
<p>As far as making this easier on the software side, can you make a leaky integrator in analog space and just sample the result of that?  If you make the filter period long enough (longer than 1/60th of a second), it&#8217;ll do your RMS averaging for you, assuming the CT output is rectified.</p>
<p>Your other option is actually doing integration in software (which would be the same thing as the above filtering, except requiring cpu cycles).</p>
<p>I think it&#8217;s safe to assume that your line voltage will be 230 V, 3 phase within ~3% (when mine varies outside that range, the power company gets pissed at me)</p>
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		<title>By: john</title>
		<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/07/05/home-power-monitoring/comment-page-1/#comment-80616</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[john]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 04:01:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hackaday.com/?p=12445#comment-80616</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@robocat - thanks! yeah I have the same annoying problem with the broadcom router which requires 2.4 in order for the wireless to work :/ i&#039;ve had it for awhile so i think i would definitely like to get one with a host usb port, that would be very convenient.

@vic - my clunky way of estimating power was to empirically using a kill-a-watt come up with a scaling factor that would map the peak value measured on the ADC to watts.  For the stuff I care to monitor the results were reasonable. Thanks to this post I&#039;ve had some email exchanges with friendly people who really know what they are talking about; I might have some additional ideas to make this more accurate for different loads.  I&#039;m interested if people think it&#039;s possible at all to measure power, compensating for power factor and whatnot, by simply using CTs on the mains.  Makes me wonder how http://www.theenergydetective.com/index.html is doing it.   -john]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@robocat &#8211; thanks! yeah I have the same annoying problem with the broadcom router which requires 2.4 in order for the wireless to work :/ i&#8217;ve had it for awhile so i think i would definitely like to get one with a host usb port, that would be very convenient.</p>
<p>@vic &#8211; my clunky way of estimating power was to empirically using a kill-a-watt come up with a scaling factor that would map the peak value measured on the ADC to watts.  For the stuff I care to monitor the results were reasonable. Thanks to this post I&#8217;ve had some email exchanges with friendly people who really know what they are talking about; I might have some additional ideas to make this more accurate for different loads.  I&#8217;m interested if people think it&#8217;s possible at all to measure power, compensating for power factor and whatnot, by simply using CTs on the mains.  Makes me wonder how <a href="http://www.theenergydetective.com/index.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.theenergydetective.com/index.html</a> is doing it.   -john</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Steve Shockley</title>
		<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/07/05/home-power-monitoring/comment-page-1/#comment-80610</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve Shockley]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 02:55:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hackaday.com/?p=12445#comment-80610</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@andrew, thanks for the warning, I didn&#039;t think of that but it makes sense.  I&#039;ve noticed open-loop hall-effect current sensors are reasonably priced and shouldn&#039;t have the same danger as a transformer, is there any downside (other than having to break the circuit to install)?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@andrew, thanks for the warning, I didn&#8217;t think of that but it makes sense.  I&#8217;ve noticed open-loop hall-effect current sensors are reasonably priced and shouldn&#8217;t have the same danger as a transformer, is there any downside (other than having to break the circuit to install)?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: robocat</title>
		<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/07/05/home-power-monitoring/comment-page-1/#comment-80606</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[robocat]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Jul 2009 02:00:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hackaday.com/?p=12445#comment-80606</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Love the project and now want to get some current transducers! 

Re: Linksys router + Arduino + Ethernet shield: I have been using an Asus wl520gu wireless router with OpenWRT because it has a host USB 2.0 port, an internal serial port, it is cheap, and it is difficult to brick. I use a USB hub with a Duemilanove USB Arduino and 1GB USB memory stick plugged in (amongst other things!). The only downside of the wl520gu is that you need to use 2.4 with it because the wireless driver under 2.6 is not working well (AFAIK). Asus WL500 (not sure which - Deluxe? Premium?) have two USB ports, 32MB memory, and 8MB flash but are more expensive.

@andrew: Thanks! *very* important to know.

@vic: don&#039;t be a tosser just because it doesn&#039;t meet your anal standards. It is a work in progress, he calibrated it using the killawatt, and most importantly it gives him a usable indication of power usage over time.

@John - thanks for making the effort to write this up - Many of us lurkers really do appreciate it (even if we don&#039;t say much normally!).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Love the project and now want to get some current transducers! </p>
<p>Re: Linksys router + Arduino + Ethernet shield: I have been using an Asus wl520gu wireless router with OpenWRT because it has a host USB 2.0 port, an internal serial port, it is cheap, and it is difficult to brick. I use a USB hub with a Duemilanove USB Arduino and 1GB USB memory stick plugged in (amongst other things!). The only downside of the wl520gu is that you need to use 2.4 with it because the wireless driver under 2.6 is not working well (AFAIK). Asus WL500 (not sure which &#8211; Deluxe? Premium?) have two USB ports, 32MB memory, and 8MB flash but are more expensive.</p>
<p>@andrew: Thanks! *very* important to know.</p>
<p>@vic: don&#8217;t be a tosser just because it doesn&#8217;t meet your anal standards. It is a work in progress, he calibrated it using the killawatt, and most importantly it gives him a usable indication of power usage over time.</p>
<p>@John &#8211; thanks for making the effort to write this up &#8211; Many of us lurkers really do appreciate it (even if we don&#8217;t say much normally!).</p>
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		<title>By: vic</title>
		<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/07/05/home-power-monitoring/comment-page-1/#comment-80533</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[vic]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 17:37:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hackaday.com/?p=12445#comment-80533</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@john: what are you trying to measure ? Apparently you&#039;re storing the max current over 20 seconds intervals (actually the raw ADC value), and using this directly as Watts. It&#039;s not the same as power at all, you need at least to calibrate the current reading, compute the RMS average value, and calculate the power assuming a constant RMS voltage and power factor. Ideally as Mephistopheles said you&#039;d compute the power by integrating the u*i product over a few AC cycles, but it requires a voltage reading.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@john: what are you trying to measure ? Apparently you&#8217;re storing the max current over 20 seconds intervals (actually the raw ADC value), and using this directly as Watts. It&#8217;s not the same as power at all, you need at least to calibrate the current reading, compute the RMS average value, and calculate the power assuming a constant RMS voltage and power factor. Ideally as Mephistopheles said you&#8217;d compute the power by integrating the u*i product over a few AC cycles, but it requires a voltage reading.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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