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	<title>Comments on: UDK: Make the next Gears of War</title>
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	<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/11/05/udk-make-the-next-gears-of-war/</link>
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		<title>By: Meh</title>
		<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/11/05/udk-make-the-next-gears-of-war/comment-page-1/#comment-321147</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Meh]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Feb 2011 12:23:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hackaday.com/?p=18170#comment-321147</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[No Mac support but they do have Iphone/Ipad support now!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No Mac support but they do have Iphone/Ipad support now!</p>
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		<title>By: Tachikoma</title>
		<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/11/05/udk-make-the-next-gears-of-war/comment-page-1/#comment-106244</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tachikoma]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Nov 2009 14:25:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hackaday.com/?p=18170#comment-106244</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Re. the shader arguments - one could look at this this way: 

Pre 1999 graphics hardware can be regarded as systems with hard wired fragment &amp; vertex shaders. Programmable shaders can be thought of making previously hard wired features accessible in software. But the fundamental principles of dumping 3D models to the graphics pipeline remains the same. Point transformations, hidden surface elimination, clipping, texturing, etc., must be still done the same way.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re. the shader arguments &#8211; one could look at this this way: </p>
<p>Pre 1999 graphics hardware can be regarded as systems with hard wired fragment &amp; vertex shaders. Programmable shaders can be thought of making previously hard wired features accessible in software. But the fundamental principles of dumping 3D models to the graphics pipeline remains the same. Point transformations, hidden surface elimination, clipping, texturing, etc., must be still done the same way.</p>
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		<title>By: henriquezrx</title>
		<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/11/05/udk-make-the-next-gears-of-war/comment-page-1/#comment-106231</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[henriquezrx]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Nov 2009 09:24:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hackaday.com/?p=18170#comment-106231</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Very cool ;]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very cool ;]</p>
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		<title>By: tj</title>
		<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/11/05/udk-make-the-next-gears-of-war/comment-page-1/#comment-106227</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[tj]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Nov 2009 08:47:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hackaday.com/?p=18170#comment-106227</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@cptfalcon: There where some implementations on a per-engine bases.

I&#039;ve also used plant solutions like SpeedTree, they are good. They are still a small portion of the equation though.

Dynamic water/liquid I think just needs to be implemented, I&#039;ve seen plugins for some engines, and there are some demos that do it. Most newer games seem to use normals and a shader with particles for collision.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@cptfalcon: There where some implementations on a per-engine bases.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve also used plant solutions like SpeedTree, they are good. They are still a small portion of the equation though.</p>
<p>Dynamic water/liquid I think just needs to be implemented, I&#8217;ve seen plugins for some engines, and there are some demos that do it. Most newer games seem to use normals and a shader with particles for collision.</p>
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		<title>By: cptfalcon</title>
		<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/11/05/udk-make-the-next-gears-of-war/comment-page-1/#comment-106226</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[cptfalcon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Nov 2009 08:25:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hackaday.com/?p=18170#comment-106226</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[@tj: Not to nitpick, but I would argue shaders are exactly the biggest difference between a 3D engine in 1999 and today. 3D-accelerated engines of &#039;99 didn&#039;t have shaders, as far as I know. Bump mapping is a simple shader trick that wasn&#039;t available before the ability to change the graphics rendering pipeline.

Besides simple shaders, there have been significant improvements in lighting, for instance soft shadows, ambient occlusion, and environment mapping. You wouldn&#039;t find these in a &#039;99 era engine. Particle systems are getting more complex(+physics), but I think we&#039;re 1 generation of hardware away from seeing the really cool stuff - some of the water techdemo&#039;s come to mind.

I haven&#039;t used SpeedTree myself, but it seems like roughly the equivalent to MakeHuman for trees and shrubbery.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@tj: Not to nitpick, but I would argue shaders are exactly the biggest difference between a 3D engine in 1999 and today. 3D-accelerated engines of &#8217;99 didn&#8217;t have shaders, as far as I know. Bump mapping is a simple shader trick that wasn&#8217;t available before the ability to change the graphics rendering pipeline.</p>
<p>Besides simple shaders, there have been significant improvements in lighting, for instance soft shadows, ambient occlusion, and environment mapping. You wouldn&#8217;t find these in a &#8217;99 era engine. Particle systems are getting more complex(+physics), but I think we&#8217;re 1 generation of hardware away from seeing the really cool stuff &#8211; some of the water techdemo&#8217;s come to mind.</p>
<p>I haven&#8217;t used SpeedTree myself, but it seems like roughly the equivalent to MakeHuman for trees and shrubbery.</p>
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		<title>By: Tachikoma</title>
		<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/11/05/udk-make-the-next-gears-of-war/comment-page-1/#comment-106224</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tachikoma]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Nov 2009 08:13:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hackaday.com/?p=18170#comment-106224</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Written by Eric:
&gt;I doubt this will change anything… games these
&gt;days require so many manhours that it’s now pretty
&gt;impossible to compete in quality with any decent
&gt;game (except maybe on the casual market).

I&#039;m not sure the term &quot;quality&quot; is very appropriate these days. Many professionally titles look fantastic, but they are riddled with bugs, and the game play is totally linear... and boring. That&#039;s the best you will see, despite publishers pour a ton of money into these things.

The issues with bugs are the worst. Some games can&#039;t be played for more than 5 minutes without the damn thing crashing. Games have become too complex and the project deadlines too stringent. The end result you get is a game that needs 10 patches for it to be playable.

I guess using an existing game engine has the advantage that some issues have been ironed out by the licensor. But that doesn&#039;t stop you from introducing new ones ;)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Written by Eric:<br />
&gt;I doubt this will change anything… games these<br />
&gt;days require so many manhours that it’s now pretty<br />
&gt;impossible to compete in quality with any decent<br />
&gt;game (except maybe on the casual market).</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not sure the term &#8220;quality&#8221; is very appropriate these days. Many professionally titles look fantastic, but they are riddled with bugs, and the game play is totally linear&#8230; and boring. That&#8217;s the best you will see, despite publishers pour a ton of money into these things.</p>
<p>The issues with bugs are the worst. Some games can&#8217;t be played for more than 5 minutes without the damn thing crashing. Games have become too complex and the project deadlines too stringent. The end result you get is a game that needs 10 patches for it to be playable.</p>
<p>I guess using an existing game engine has the advantage that some issues have been ironed out by the licensor. But that doesn&#8217;t stop you from introducing new ones ;)</p>
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		<title>By: tj</title>
		<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/11/05/udk-make-the-next-gears-of-war/comment-page-1/#comment-106193</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[tj]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Nov 2009 02:05:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hackaday.com/?p=18170#comment-106193</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The reason indy developers shouldn&#039;t use most of the mentioned open source engines is because they want a high level interface to work with so they can actually accomplish their goals productively.

You use the id engine for example you&#039;ll end up writing thousands of lines of code just for a single character control. You also have to handle your own data types and do garbage cleanup. You might as well write from scratch.

With engines like Leadwerks and propriety licensed engines from major studios everything is highly abstracted while maintaining flexibility, and that&#039;s how development has evolved and should be. It&#039;s counter-productive to back-step with low level API code.

On that same note though none of the engines have things like collision morphing(the algorithm for meshes you use to emulate damage). So if you want bouncing boobs or car damage you&#039;ll have to do it on your own with a state machine and physics engine.

This is just engine discussion though. The main problem is content development. A highly skilled modeler takes on average a week to do a single model because of many reasons such as poly reduction, texturing etc..

Non-Active objects are simple with the exception of quality texturing. Zbrush is about the only practical solution for that and they micro manage all the aspects of the interface like blender and 3d max do so it becomes a headache to work with.

MakeHuman is about the only software I feel has evolved for this problem, and their roadmap indicates the game dev features wont show for years, and most of the CG community want that project dead because it threatens job security..never-mind the blatant innovation is presents.

Also for noobs: Literally the only difference between a 3D game developed in 1999, and a &#039;next gen&#039; one on the PS3/x360/PC is physics, and normal maps. The reflections and such are just new shaders.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The reason indy developers shouldn&#8217;t use most of the mentioned open source engines is because they want a high level interface to work with so they can actually accomplish their goals productively.</p>
<p>You use the id engine for example you&#8217;ll end up writing thousands of lines of code just for a single character control. You also have to handle your own data types and do garbage cleanup. You might as well write from scratch.</p>
<p>With engines like Leadwerks and propriety licensed engines from major studios everything is highly abstracted while maintaining flexibility, and that&#8217;s how development has evolved and should be. It&#8217;s counter-productive to back-step with low level API code.</p>
<p>On that same note though none of the engines have things like collision morphing(the algorithm for meshes you use to emulate damage). So if you want bouncing boobs or car damage you&#8217;ll have to do it on your own with a state machine and physics engine.</p>
<p>This is just engine discussion though. The main problem is content development. A highly skilled modeler takes on average a week to do a single model because of many reasons such as poly reduction, texturing etc..</p>
<p>Non-Active objects are simple with the exception of quality texturing. Zbrush is about the only practical solution for that and they micro manage all the aspects of the interface like blender and 3d max do so it becomes a headache to work with.</p>
<p>MakeHuman is about the only software I feel has evolved for this problem, and their roadmap indicates the game dev features wont show for years, and most of the CG community want that project dead because it threatens job security..never-mind the blatant innovation is presents.</p>
<p>Also for noobs: Literally the only difference between a 3D game developed in 1999, and a &#8216;next gen&#8217; one on the PS3/x360/PC is physics, and normal maps. The reflections and such are just new shaders.</p>
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		<title>By: WeblionX</title>
		<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/11/05/udk-make-the-next-gears-of-war/comment-page-1/#comment-106090</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[WeblionX]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 17:43:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hackaday.com/?p=18170#comment-106090</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[What about every Id engine that&#039;s been opensourced? Even those that aren&#039;t generally have an SDK so you can make your own mod, which can go surprisingly far.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What about every Id engine that&#8217;s been opensourced? Even those that aren&#8217;t generally have an SDK so you can make your own mod, which can go surprisingly far.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim</title>
		<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/11/05/udk-make-the-next-gears-of-war/comment-page-1/#comment-106087</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jim]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 17:18:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hackaday.com/?p=18170#comment-106087</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I have used DX studio for a 3d simulation package and am impressed at its ease of use. 
It uses javascript for scripting and can interface with external dlls. 
The thing that pulled me towards their engine was the ActiveX support so I can have the 3d content rendered to a windows form or to WPF using a windows form host.
The forums are very active and if the engine doesnt support something that you need they are pretty good at getting it in the next service release for you.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have used DX studio for a 3d simulation package and am impressed at its ease of use.<br />
It uses javascript for scripting and can interface with external dlls.<br />
The thing that pulled me towards their engine was the ActiveX support so I can have the 3d content rendered to a windows form or to WPF using a windows form host.<br />
The forums are very active and if the engine doesnt support something that you need they are pretty good at getting it in the next service release for you.</p>
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		<title>By: theX</title>
		<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/11/05/udk-make-the-next-gears-of-war/comment-page-1/#comment-106086</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[theX]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 17:04:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hackaday.com/?p=18170#comment-106086</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[neoaxis (http://www.neoaxisgroup.com/) is a pretty good engine. it&#039;s written in c# and uses ogre for rendering.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>neoaxis (<a href="http://www.neoaxisgroup.com/" rel="nofollow">http://www.neoaxisgroup.com/</a>) is a pretty good engine. it&#8217;s written in c# and uses ogre for rendering.</p>
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		<title>By: walt</title>
		<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/11/05/udk-make-the-next-gears-of-war/comment-page-1/#comment-106073</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[walt]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 14:53:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hackaday.com/?p=18170#comment-106073</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[this post sponsored by Gears of War coming soon for PC, PS3 and Xbox360. reserve our copy today. don&#039;t wait. buy now!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>this post sponsored by Gears of War coming soon for PC, PS3 and Xbox360. reserve our copy today. don&#8217;t wait. buy now!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Caleb Kraft</title>
		<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/11/05/udk-make-the-next-gears-of-war/comment-page-1/#comment-106072</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Caleb Kraft]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 14:36:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hackaday.com/?p=18170#comment-106072</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[i&#039;ve done some stuff with the source engine, all asset creation (models, brushes etc). I&#039;ve looked at unity but haven&#039;t tried it yet. I made a player model for ut3, so maybe I could get stuff into it. I&#039;m not much into programming though.

@tj,
  Thanks for showing us Leadwerks, I like what I see.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i&#8217;ve done some stuff with the source engine, all asset creation (models, brushes etc). I&#8217;ve looked at unity but haven&#8217;t tried it yet. I made a player model for ut3, so maybe I could get stuff into it. I&#8217;m not much into programming though.</p>
<p>@tj,<br />
  Thanks for showing us Leadwerks, I like what I see.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Nick</title>
		<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/11/05/udk-make-the-next-gears-of-war/comment-page-1/#comment-106071</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nick]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 14:29:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hackaday.com/?p=18170#comment-106071</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Epic Games&#039;s &quot;Game Maker&quot; for DOS. I made a top view Zelda style game of my middle school and sold it to friends and eventually teachers. I made $200 selling floppies! I also used to have Pie in the Sky&#039;s &quot;Game Creation System&quot; which was based on the Quake engine if I remember correctly. I think I&#039;d prefer a 2D game maker to the crazy 3D advanced things due to the amount of time you have to spend on accomplishing so little.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Epic Games&#8217;s &#8220;Game Maker&#8221; for DOS. I made a top view Zelda style game of my middle school and sold it to friends and eventually teachers. I made $200 selling floppies! I also used to have Pie in the Sky&#8217;s &#8220;Game Creation System&#8221; which was based on the Quake engine if I remember correctly. I think I&#8217;d prefer a 2D game maker to the crazy 3D advanced things due to the amount of time you have to spend on accomplishing so little.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: tj</title>
		<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/11/05/udk-make-the-next-gears-of-war/comment-page-1/#comment-106070</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[tj]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 14:07:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hackaday.com/?p=18170#comment-106070</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Unity or Leadwerks. Leadwerks is probably the most powerful engine you can get if you don&#039;t have the cash for a engine from a big studio. You can get it for like a hundred bucks.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unity or Leadwerks. Leadwerks is probably the most powerful engine you can get if you don&#8217;t have the cash for a engine from a big studio. You can get it for like a hundred bucks.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: M4CGYV3R</title>
		<link>http://hackaday.com/2009/11/05/udk-make-the-next-gears-of-war/comment-page-1/#comment-106069</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[M4CGYV3R]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 13:57:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://hackaday.com/?p=18170#comment-106069</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[So how is this different from UnrealED and Kismet that were out before? I don&#039;t see how you can give people more control than direct C++ coding...

Also, XNA sucks for anything remotely complicated. It&#039;s simple, and fast, but the managed system doesn&#039;t allow for much freedom in memory and asset management, and the MS overhead is pretty high. If you want to make a game, learn C++ and use DirectX or OpenGL.

Console development isn&#039;t really feasible with a system like this. Unless they make something like the XNA Connect system, it will be near impossible to deploy anything playable.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So how is this different from UnrealED and Kismet that were out before? I don&#8217;t see how you can give people more control than direct C++ coding&#8230;</p>
<p>Also, XNA sucks for anything remotely complicated. It&#8217;s simple, and fast, but the managed system doesn&#8217;t allow for much freedom in memory and asset management, and the MS overhead is pretty high. If you want to make a game, learn C++ and use DirectX or OpenGL.</p>
<p>Console development isn&#8217;t really feasible with a system like this. Unless they make something like the XNA Connect system, it will be near impossible to deploy anything playable.</p>
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