Canadian consumer goods testing site RTINGS has been subjecting 100 TVs to an accelerated TV longevity test, subjecting them so far to over 10,000 hours of on-time, equaling about six years of regular use in a US household. This test has shown a range of interesting issues and defects already, including for the OLED-based TVs. But the most recent issue which they covered is that of uniformity issues with edge-lit TVs. This translates to uneven backlighting including striping and very bright spots, which teardowns revealed to be due to warped reflector sheets, cracked light guides, and burned-out LEDs.
Excluding the 18 OLED TVs, which are now badly burnt in, over a quarter of the remaining TVs in the test suffer from uniformity issues. But things get interesting when contrasting between full-array local dimming (FALD), direct-lit (DL) and edge-lit (EL) LCD TVs. Of the EL types, 7 out of 11 (64%) have uniformity issues, with one having outright failed and others in the process of doing so. Among the FALD and DL types the issue rate here is 14 out of 71 (20%), which is still not ideal after a simulated 6 years of use but far less dramatic.
As part of the RTINGS longevity test, failures and issues are investigated and a teardown for analysis, and fixing, is performed when necessary. For these uniformity issues, the EL LCD teardowns revealed burned-out LEDs in the EL LED strips, with cracks in the light-guide plate (LGP) that distributes the light, as well as warped reflector sheets. The LGPs are offset slightly with plastic standoffs to not touch the very hot LEDs, but these standoffs can melt, followed by the LGP touching the hot LEDs. With the damaged LGP, obviously the LCD backlighting will be horribly uneven.
In the LG QNED80 (2022) TV, its edge lighting LEDs were measured with a thermocouple to be running at a searing 123 °C at the maximum brightness setting. As especially HDR (high-dynamic range) content requires high brightness levels, this would thus be a more common scenario in EL TVs than one might think. As for why EL LCDs still exist since they seem to require extreme heatsinking to keep the LEDs from melting straight through the LCD? RTINGS figures it’s because EL allows for LCD TVs to be thinner, allowing them to compete with OLEDs while selling at a premium compared to even FALD LCDs.
Heat management seems to be a forgotten art. We got a new cable box that’s only an inch thick with no buttons and no vent cuts except in the back and it gets HOT. Hot to the point were we have to shut it down or it smells like magic smoke. I rigged a PC fan onto it. We’ll see if it lasts. Such a poor design.
I used to have a cheap 56k dialup modem, it was prone to random disconnects and high error rate after long gaming sessions. I noticed the little box were often hot to the touch so I hacked it by putting holes in it (both top and lower sides) and screwing a 60mm fan on top to blow air up. Never had a random disconnect since then.
That modem was new I think 2002 or 2003 so yeah even back then, cheap companies still forgot something.
Thats the best part of technological advancements, lower power requirement and therefore lower thermal output. I run a desktop PC at home, it gets shut off when weather hits above 85°F to keep my home temp manageable. A cellphone or raspberry pi then replaces PC use.
It depends. It also has a downside, though. The use of lower voltages and higher integration leads to smaller structures inside integrated circuits.
Meaning, they have less robustness and less material inside.
The traces are smaller and thus small defects have an higher impact to the working state of the circuit.
Really, let’s think about it. Why is it that electronics from the 1970s are so longlived? I’d say it’s because they’re made exact opposite to what you admire.
These ancient components are big, “power hungry” beasts that can handle a few punches without crying. That’s why an i8086 can be used in space applications (was used in space shuttle) but not an i7.
The bigger structures can widtstand exposure to raditation, still.
And I’m not talking about special, space-hardened versions but regular ICs.
The space-hardened versions are even more sturdy, even.
The only exception to what I wrote are early DRAM chips/early FETs. Early CMOS technology was very fragile and inferior to what we have now:
The then-new 4000 series of ICs had certain issues over the older 7400 series of TTL ICs, for example.
That’s were modern CMOS technology had improved a lot.
Still, modern CMOS could still be tougher if made in bigger structures and with 5v standard.
Parts depending on 3,3v and lower voltages are weaklings.
I’m awaiting the rise of extreme mini-split systems that allow you to hook high energy devices (Fridge, Waterheater, perhaps Dryer, Dishwasher and PC) to a refrigerant line in the walls.
Then you can have one really big and super efficient unit for an entire house of devices.
This was probalbly a joke but, condensation is a real problem with using anything below ambient temperature to cool electronics.
Also assuming this is a joke.
But it makes me think of something I have thought about before.
How about an external condenser for a refrigerator that sits outside the house. The fridge would be placed along an outside wall so it is a short run. There would be an internal condenser too, like fridges use today and a valve to switch between the two.
In the summer then one would choose the outside condenser so as to pump heat out of the house. In the winter choose the inside one so as to conserve heat.
Of course.. that means you would need a licensed HVAC repair person to install the fridge.
Alternative.. the back of the fridge is designed to be weatherproof and sticks out a hole in the wall like a Window mount A/C. Then in the winter it rolls forward, into the house and a door is shut over to close the hole.
Takes a mod to the wall but then at least an HVAC licensed person is not required every time you get a new fridge!
Or… hot air exiting fridge… goes to a hose with a mount to be closed in a window. Like those small A/C units.
I have a Krell KAV300i amplifier built in ’99. I recently recapped it and found a toasted area on the amplifier PCB where a couple transistors that are used in an 18V regulator were running hot- no heatsinks on them. Surrounding components were likewise toasted. I replaced the toasted parts and those transistors and fabricated some heatsinks from a strip of aluminum. The amp puts out 150 W/ch and the output transistor heatsinks are inside the chassis, with some small slots on the top cover to let air circulate. I may mill a bunch of larger slots in the top cover.
I’m gonna guess that there’s no way to come up with an “accelerated 6 year test” that’s anywhere near realistic. How would you even prove that?
Accelerated aging isn’t realistic but it yields data and statistics than can be used to determine what the common failures are over time and what the average lifespan of a piece of equipment is.
How do you think equipment manufactures determine the quality level needed for a product to survive until it is out of warranty?
Every single silicon device created uses Arrhenius equation to help remove all the “Early Infant Mortality Failures” from the standard “Bathtub Curve”. Basically the devices are shoved into an oven and powered up for a number of days or weeks, depending on the temperature used and the acceptable yield.
In basic words for circuits this would be “Every 10°C (~18°F) increase in temperature reduce the life of electronics by half..” Or flipped upside down every 10°C (~18°F) decrease in operating temperature, will increases the meantime to failure by a factor of two.”
The Arrhenius (chemical) equation in words would be “For every 10°C (~18°F) increase in temperature, a chemical reaction’s rate doubles.”
So my guess is that they ran their accelerate testing in a temperature controlled room.
This technique is similar to the accelerate printer pigment testing. Were printed pages are exposed inside a light box or a light room to 10x, 100x, 1000x the light intensity for a day to a year for understanding of undesirable aging effects.
It is an not ideal, but the results are good enough statistically when compared to real world failures and aging.
In my experience, burn-in is seldom performed, particularly on consumer devices. It’s just too expensive and doesn’t weed out much.
They have been focusing on developing methods to quickly age electronics with realistic results for a long time. It’s not perfect but it’s pretty good
Lots of ways depending what you’re hoping to find – non-stop running at maximum power (in this case they appear to be running the TV’s at max brightness 24/7), thermal cycling, running in an oven or thermal chamber, noisy power supplies or power spikes to find any weaknesses in a device, all manner of stuff.
I’m not sure that the consumer testing guys will be doing the same level of testing as a military device or something like that but the tests are at least *representative” for measuring relative reliability and catching any early failures.
I’m sure this is an accelerated ageing test and that things like that exist and are useful. I’m saying if > 60% of these new TVs fail within 6 years I’m sure we’ll hear about it and there will be plenty of class action lawsuits and electronics companies going bankrupt.
Nah, it’s pretty standard for disposable electronics like TVs to die anywhere between 5 years and 10 years, especially if it’s a cheaper version and not a premium product. Most households aren’t running TVs from 2014 or if they are then it’s in the kids room.
For a while our guest room had a TV from the 2000s but between the screen damage and the fact that it was only 720p meant it wasn’t a good TV.
I don’t want it good, I want it cheap! The problem with all consumer products today.
“I don’t want it good, I want it cheap! The problem with all consumer products today.”
Really? Have they been asked? Do they have a choice?
Are “expensive” models sold of higher quality or do manufacturers cheat to them?
Personally, I’ve never been asked: “Dear customer, do you want to buy this cheaply made appliance here that breaks within a few weeks or do you want to buy this more expensive model that will never cause you headache within in the next few years?”
Seriously, I would like to be asked. I would gladly overpay if I knew it won’t bother me for a while and “just works”.
The problem is we’re in the minority. A few thousand people in the world willing to pay $1,000 for a durable long lasting 50″ TV vs a few hundred million people who wants the same, but as cheap as possible (under $500 for “ok” quality to under $300 for cheap stuff). A lot of the companies aren’t going to invest in production of long lasting durable product with 20+ years warranty just for a few of us.
I think if they actually put a real 10 year warranty and it was less than double the price of the “cheap” option then a lot of customers would flock to it.
The problem is the companies would make less money, and so they don’t; they either offer a scam warranty that’s impossible to get honored (or costs shipping and handling that is half the purchase price), or they don’t offer the warranty at all and charge double so you just have to pray it doesn’t break.
“Are “expensive” models sold of higher quality or do manufacturers cheat to them?”
I often apply that question to USB cables.
You get what you pay for…At best.
You can also get the same POS for much more money. e.g. German cars.
Status symbols that don’t last are better.
You won’t see the riffraff driving around in an old BMW anymore.
Unmaintainable by design.
For TVs the decision is made for you.
There is only one brand of dumb 4k tvs available. Sceptre.
Only place to get them is Walmart.com
Not the store, online only.
Super inexpensive, very average screen, decent life.
Makes OK monitor, but only 60Hz.
43” for $200, I’m not complaining.
Up until about 15 years ago you just paid more money and bought sony. Good for 20 or 30 years, though my oldest one was 2nd hand, no remote and pliers to change channel. Last one i had to solder in new ic at 5yrs. :(
no matter how they build it today, software upgrades (or lack of it) will make it obsolete within 10 years. 30 Years ago all TV’s used the same format, now they are expected to be HD, no full HD, no 4K, sorry I mean 8K. And they can play all you video formats… oh wait, new (slightly different compression algo), sorry can’t play it any more.
Fortunately I can still plug in my USB device to play old movies… darn, it doesn’t accept my new drive, wrong USB plug.
What I mean is, the standard keep changing too often there is no way you can really expect to use a new TV bought today 30 years from now.
Still looking for a new VCR to play my video CD’s. Should I use betamax Laserdiscs or V2000 DVD’s and what to do with those Umatic tapes, should I throw them away. Well… I’ll guess I have to buy the Star Wars re-re-re-re-reelease agina, fortunately these have improved scenes (well that’s what they say at least).
For over-the-air television reception, ATSC 3.0 is coming. It has a better modulation scheme and other advantages. It’s incompatible with the current standard.
In all likelihood, conversion boxes will be available for about $50 to allow existing TVs to continue being used.
Of course if you need the latest tech you will have to upgrade/update, that is marketing and lifestyle of most people. I am a dinosaur in that I will continue to use something as long as it is sufficient, I know I’m in a minority. My now 10 or 11 yr old LED tv is fine for me. I use OTA for tv and long ago converted my dvd collection to video files on laptop drives with a usb to sata adapter and put the dvds and player in a storage shed. I did firmware updates once or twice that added useful features but since I have no use for the “smart features” I never set them up and never installed the last update from ~5 years ago as it offered no new features I use.
You’re right, the choice is a cheap, no name product for $x or a “brand name” product for $2x, and both are made in the same factory with different badging. I guess you can pay for anything you want these days, except quality.
Seems like designs are heat stress engineered to last the warranty period and no more.
“If we can save a penny so it only lasts 3 years and not 30, that’s a holiday bonus I can live with!”
Consumers tend to forget that all specific technology has it’s limits, and they glance over the hidden costs of pushing a technology beyond those limits.
Is there any practical difference in functionality between a 3mm thin TV and a 4cm thick TV. The 3mm TV is probably irreparable, and the 4cm TV is probably easy repairable (unless the whole thing is glued together or other anti-repair features that make it 10ct cheaper to manufacture.
The completely ridiculous quest for ever thinner and lighter gadgets have pushed laptops into non replaceable RAM and SSD’s. Every phone manufacturer is lying about the thickness of their phone because they don’t include the camera that sticks out and make the thing wobbly. I would much rather have a phone with a flat backside that lasts 2 weeks on single charge.
Try to buy a phone with a rectangular screen these days. They (nearly) all have silly rounded corners and a hole in the screen.
Manufacturers really like and embrace silly quests that make gadgets more expensive and fragile at the same time and spend enormous amount of effort and money and advertising (look our gadget is thinner then that from the competitor) (Your phone also breaks in half if you sit on it accidentally, but that does not matter, we are happy to sell you a new one).
“Consumers tend to forget that all specific technology has it’s limits, and they glance over the hidden costs of pushing a technology beyond those limits.”
That’s new thinking, maybe.
Here in Germany, we were used to use things for generations.
My dads Bosch drilling machine is from the 70s and it still shows no wear.
Same for the Krups hand mixer from same time. Or the RG-28 model from former East Germany.
These tools/appliances were simply properly built, not over engineered.
Or let’s take beds. It used to be normal that beds do last centuries and being passed over between multiple generations.
And they weren’t luxury items. Just “normal” made furniture without capitalistic, profit oriented second thoughts.
No offense. I just think that some people forgotten that things used to work different, as well.
But centuries ago there were fewer people. With 7 billion people on the planet there are not enough beds from the past to be passed down.
Survivor bias.
The old junk existed.
Nobody has seen it in decades/centuries.
That said: Germany. Everything made of ‘crete’. Houses cost as much to tear down as to build. WWII flaktowers that nobody can afford to tear down in major city downtowns. Brutalist architecture and Soviet housing blocks.
Good cheap beer though.
Hm? I’m not sure if I can fully follow, my English isn’t that great I think.
Anyway, the house I live in isn’t made of concrete/beton but stone and wood.
It was made circa in the early 20th century, so it’s rather young, still.
And there’s a forest not far away, it’s not an environment that resembles soviet era architecture.
But block architecture exists, yes. I think that block architecture was the result of a fast-paced rebuilding phase after WK2.
People needed living space and so they built block buildings in the 1950s/60s, especially in the eastern parts.
They also focused on a car-centric infrastructure, like in the states, which is now seen as a big mistake in retrospect.
Over time people realized the importance of nature for happiness and good living quality, and the relevance of public transportation.
In other parts of the country, they went another route straight away and restored old cities directly after WK2.
The rebuilding took decades sometimes, but the Investments and high costs turned out to be worth it. The people living in cities like, say, Dresden are happy about having their homeland back.
It’s not about money or cost efficiency, but about culture and the connection between people and their homeland.
my bosch hot water heater died after only 18 years due to a part that was specified to require periodic replacement (nominally, 5-10 years iirc). the part failed after 18 years, at which time it was no longer sold. and when it was sold, it was for about a third of the purchase price of the whole unit.
i think every brand (and every generation of that brand) has hits and misses. i don’t think bosch is serious about bucking that trend
“They (nearly) all have silly rounded corners and a hole in the screen.”
That little hole doesn’t bother me at all, I’m perplexed why some people are…
I give 0 fucks about selfie cameras, and screens with cutouts are also often going to the edge.
Which both renders the edge of the screen that’s the side of your holding hand useless, and also immensely increase screen breakage risk in case of accidentally dropping it and it contacting a hard surface with the side of the phone.
“but why not a phone case?” I hear some unwashed plebians say, while they’re completely ignoring how wider and taller that’d make already extremely wide and tall phones.
Well at those temps the plastics and adhesives are under stress too which they’d never see during normal use unless your room temperature is 90 degrees C ie a sauna.
If you don’t run your TV or monitor at max brightness all the time, but darken the room a little your TV may last decades. It’s probably the power supply that dies first. It can be replaced but it’s more economic to just replace the whole TV. We hackers are able to repair them easily, or pick them up from the side walk and save it from waste disposal for a few more years, if you don’t break the glass panel that is ;)
“It’s probably the power supply that dies first. ”
The inverter for the lighting used to be a problem part, too.
“It can be replaced but it’s more economic to just replace the whole TV.”
Depends. Some people prefer to keep the existing TV because it has features not found on current models.
Support for 3D glasses, for example. Or VGA and SCART connector. Or it’s the old OS/menu software people got used to.
Back in the 20th century, people were stilling willing to pay a TV or radio repair man to service their appliances.
And it wasn’t just about money. These people were willing to pay money to get their beloved TV or radio fixed, even if it was outdated.
This is something young people should learn again, that there’s more than money and profits in life.
Some people have a heart and an emotional attachment to somethibg.
They value obsolete things, both animate and inanimate.
There’s a saying that comes to mind: Some people are so poor, all they have is money!
“This is something young people should learn again, that there’s more than money and profits in life.”
That’s going to be a tough sell to people for whom money has almost always been the poor master rather than the good servant, because it doesn’t go very far these days and most of their problems are related to money. If it’s a smarter financial decision to replace the whole TV, maybe they can’t afford not to be frugal about it, just because of some ideal about what such a device should be. Once they have finally clawed their way to having the chance to learn about things beyond survival, who is it that’s teaching them? Or are they supposed to just figure out something that hasn’t been true for them before?
Hi. I’m not sure if I have a proper answer to that.
I’m afraid I don’t fully understand the grammar and Google Translate is no big help in translation of the context.
Anyway, my point simply was about the ethical implication, about the mindset or mentality.
If people grow up with a “throw away mindset” and a heavy focus on money, this mindset will get deeply stuck, I’m afraid.
Such people, at worst, will also apply this thinking to living beings at some point. Simply because it’s their hard‐wiredmthinking pattern.
They may ask themselves (unconsciously) if it’s financially smart to pay an medication or operation for a family member or if it’s worth to save their children.
After all, it might be financially smarter to simply make new children, because it’s cheaper. Or get a new pet, rather than healing the ill one.
And that’s the danger of super capitalism and money thinking, I’m afraid.
People who’re basically raised like salesmen will inadvertedly develop such thinking patterns.
This seems like exxageration at first glance, but is it really?
I sincerely can’t judge, because I don’t have contact with such people.
But I can’t definitely exclude the possibilty of the existance of such a mindset, either.
Going by all the reoccuring comments at HaD and on the internet about how much money is everything, the picture really darkens.
That’s also one of the big social differences between the staates and old Europe, maybe and one cause for unintended conflicts or misunderstandings.
Here in Europe, I think, we’re far from perfect, though we focus more on living and social contacts rather than being financially succesful.
Money is import, sure, but it’s a tool and not the center of life.
People here are rather seeking for a purpose in life and something that will persist. Something that remains after they passed away.
That’s also why Germans build sturdy houses or plant a tree. They want something to remain.
We have things like a public healthcare system that prevents people from working to death.
If they’re ill, they have the right to visit a doctor and stay in bed.
And the employers do understand this. If they’re in same situation, they will gain the same benefits from this system.
Speaking of points of views, I believe there was a time when people in overseas had a similar mindset about being proud of building quality products or improving the situation in the home country. I always thought such ideals would be universal. I could be wrong, though.
Here in the US I feel like I am witnessing a growth in people buying expensive stuff just because they feel it’s what they have to do to look successful.
I think most people would assume I make about a quarter of what I do by looking at my stuff. Actually, I know some do, I have been told so. But I’m going to retire early and pass something on to my kid when I die. Most people I know will never retire and when they die and their creditors will split the estates.
Anyway.. people do this to make people think they are successful? I can’t follow that. I usually just think they are fools when I see it.
I do not mean to defend that, what I mean to defend is the young people you highlighted as having the problem. If a diabetic person is obsessed with acquiring the money to pay for their insulin, their attitude towards money is a product of the fact that someone has set an incredibly high price for something they need. If a hungry student doesn’t pay a few bucks to go enjoy art or culture, it’s a product of them prioritizing their unmet need for food, NOT because they are somehow innately inferior people. Of course it can be that they retain such attitudes even if they escape that circumstance. But they are only doing as they were taught by experience. If we wish them to do otherwise, we must give them that lesson instead.
Most name brand TV’s I’ve investigated reset themselves to 100% brightness every power cycle. They are deliberately shortening the life of the device.
Which is another advantage of cheap Sceptre dumb 4k TVs. They retain that setting.
I’ve adjusted settings on 6-10 TVs and have never seen brightness reset after a power cycle. Just an anecdote, but this would also be reported by orgs like RTINGS, I think.
Now wait a sec, I cannot seem to find the details of how they did the accelerated test. But this is usually done by running it at higher temp, and calculating the equivalent at normal temperatures using Arrhenius’ equation. That is ok if the part is still used within spec, e.g. an IC used for 1000hrs at 125 deg C to simulate equivalent life at 60 deg C or so. But if plastic starts melting, leading to cascade failure in other parts, that does not sound like equivalent to me. At 10 degrees lower this might not happen at all.
Well, I found details immediately – rtings seems to indicate they aren’t accelerating things unrealistically, but effectively just using the TV’s on max for a long time each day, accumulating hours much faster than a normal person would. https://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/longevity-test
Do normal persons accumulate hours faster if you do not turn them off at night?
I could be wrong but I always assumed that most damage is caused by the heat cycling from cold to hot and hot to cold.
I think being sufficiently worn out is a turn off for normal persons.
Yeah seems pretty damning
Such premature deaths towards these sets are deserved considering the fake news boomers play on them 24/7. A fear based reality is a symptom of childhood lead poisoning. IMO abandonment issues are one of their many, irrational “fears” thus why they need something/someone mumbling in their ear.
You have derangement syndrome, you’re no better. Pop psychology analysis notwithstanding.
It’s crazy that people still think that the primary mode of propaganda is television. Hello?? Internet?
Spot on – the most effective manipulation is an AI attacking that individual’s mind.
That’s the major social media players… Literally their bread and butter.
Now, I have seen a fair bit of efforts to target advertising within smart TVs, but I think it’s the very nature of the interaction with a TV vs a social media site/app that makes them less insidious…
“It’s crazy that people still think that the primary mode of propaganda is television.”
It still is among the elderly generation. And they are the ones most likely to vote.
You will be correct in a decade or two when they die off though…
“You have derangement syndrome…”
OK Drumpie!
Alex is an Ageist suffering from severe TDS. Do us a favor Alex and go back to ars where you can be amongst others of your species.
Ya know, maybe if they put the LED strip on top of the display instead of the bottom, some magical force might keep the heat away from the other components.
Good point, although maybe they are using another magical force to keep the LED’s in place, placing the LED’s on the top and upside down might cause another magical force to be inverted.
In other words, gravity might make it fall off. And from what I’ve learned the magical smoke is always slightly hot, so you’d need some increased temperatures to keep things working, because otherwise the smoke won’t be smoke and it can’t work. That’s why you can’t watch your favorite TV show on your fridge, since that is a cold device, so the smoke can’t function. Electronics isn’t hard, if you know where to look for.
WHY MUST EVERYTHING BE THINNER????
Are people’s apartments so small now that their tv sticking out an extra inch from the wall means they have to give up the toilet or something? FFS Just make something that works and is NOT intended to be landfill in 6 months please!
Dummies are too far in debt buying up every new generation of e-waste and the planet isn’t doing so great either.
Some of the LED backlit TVs I have owned failed with black vertical or horizontal bands caused by failed conductive adhesive on the ribbon cables connected to the LCD panels. Sometimes the problem can be temporarily fixed by gently heating where the ribbon cable attaches to the LCD and pressing down on the cable until it cools. But the chance of success is small. Professional TV repair technicians sometimes have access to new ribbon cables which can provide better results. But the fix is costly and temporary. Where I live the Climate Nazis charge you $400 for every TV or computer display you put out in the trash. The broken devices cost far more to fix than they cost new, and the repair does not last long. Lately I am hearing new “smart” TVs are the only kind you can buy any more, and they do not fully function unless you give them unfettered access to the Internet so they can earn the manufacturer forever-profits by forcing advertisements et-cetera on the device’s “owner”.