Sit down for a moment commenters, we need to talk.
Yes, you all knew this post was coming one day. We’ve talked about this topic at length internally, and we have decided that we’re going to clean up our act. For some time, Hack a Day has been growing a reputation as the prime source of extremely negative, vulgar, rude, sexist, and inflammatory comments in the hacking community. We’ve had complaints from readers (yes there are readers that aren’t commenters, thousands of them) and fellow members of the hacking community about this problem for a long time. [Eliot] even mentioned it back in 2009 when a job applicant expressed concern. We’ve nicely tried to steer things to the positive in a variety of ways, from suggesting commenters to be more supportive, jokingly making a troll detector, and simply stating that the comments need to stay “on topic and nice”.
When we see things like these tweets by [Jeri Ellsworth], we hang our heads in shame.
She’s not the only one. We actually get this quite regularly. As our readership grows, we see it more and more often. We get emails explaining that people have done a hack but don’t really want to post it because the commenters will just tear it apart in an unnecessarily aggressive and negative way. We have actually had people ask us to remove their projects and comments due to uncivil behavior. Constructive criticism is good, but insulting and angry deconstruction isn’t helpful to anyone.
We’re better than that aren’t we? We are fast, agile and fairly unrestricted in our content. We should be at the center of this community, not on the outer edges, reviled by many for the behavior of a few. Hackaday should be the teacher at the front of the classroom, not the kid in the back throwing wadded up paper at the kids in the front.
What we’re doing:
First off, as far as we can foresee, we will never close the comments section of our web site down. Hackaday should be a home for the entire hacking community and as such, you will always be able to settle in and have a reasonable discussion. We do not want to implement any sort of G+ integration or similar, nor do we want to require registration to leave a comment. We will if we absolutely have to, but lets try to avoid that.
Comment sections and forums have often been a place where negative comments can get out of hand. There are many theories for why this happens, but the result is usually the same: rules and moderation. Many sites have already laid down the law and are adhering to their goals of keeping things civil. We realize that we are to blame if our image is this poor, so we are doing something about it.
From this point moving forward, Hackaday comments will be civil. If you are posting an empty in-joke (“where’s the Arduino?”), a declaration of “not a hack”, a racist, sexist, completely off topic, platform-hating, or personally insulting comment, your post will be deleted. This will be at the discretion of whichever Hackaday staff member happens to see your comment first.
Can you criticize Hackaday?
You can’t walk into a business and start screaming about how much they suck without being escorted out immediately. Same thing applies here.
We are always hard at work trying to find interesting hacks, makes, repairs, tweaks, videos, etc. that appeal to a wide spectrum of readers. We put this web site together for you, as well as 200,000 other individuals. Not everything will appeal to everybody. That would be impossible. However, if you don’t like a post or project, just skip it – we’ll have another one ready in short order. We will feature projects that appeal to the seasoned EE as well as the complete beginner. We were all beginners at one time, and it would have been great to have something like Hack a Day around back then to show us hacks ranging from simple to advanced.
From time to time however, Hack a Day can be a less than desirable place to hang out, especially for those who are coming here for the first time. We don’t want to chase off young, creative minds. As a community, we should be helping those that are just starting to venture into hacking electronics.
If you have a problem, email us. You’ll probably actually get a response that way too. My email is Caleb@ and you’re always welcome to email me personally. Again, please be civil (yep, I’ve had my share of death threats).
Grammar/spelling corrections and dead links:
No need to comment, just email us. A message to team@ will suffice, but you will probably get a quicker response by emailing the author directly. We know we have issues – we’re often so excited about a hack that some little goof slips by. Email us and we’ll fix it. Don’t write a 3 paragraph comment about how important the oxford comma is, or how we’re obviously incapable of functioning because we accidentally flubbed a word. We promise we will never intentionally screw up some grammar, spelling, or punctuation.
What you can will do to help:
Be constructive.
Every project here probably has an area that could be improved, or a part that was done inefficiently. Support your fellow hackers by offering your expertise. Explain why something isn’t working, or how you would improve it. Don’t slam them for their shortcomings. Also keep in mind that different people go about things different ways. Poster X didn’t build something the way you did? Offer an alternative without being insulting. If someone chooses to use their brand new Core i7 monster system to drive a few LEDs, that’s their prerogative. Inside, we all know that it is not the most efficient use of money or technology, there’s no reason to beat that dead horse in public.
You know what else encourages hackers to do more projects? A pat on the back. I talk to people all the time who say that they just don’t have any constructive criticism for the projects, so they don’t comment. Well, that and they know they’ll bring the ire of the worst commenters if they happen to ask a silly question. Drop in and say what you like about a project. Those positive posts might just be enough to encourage that hacker to take it a step further. How many projects have you seen dropped simply because people thought there wasn’t any interest? Tons. If you like a project, let them know.
To encourage this, the writers are going to be keeping an eye on the comments. Randomly, when we see someone being exceptionally helpful, we’ll contact them and send them a prize. This will most likely be in the form of a hackaday sticker, but we’ll see if we can’t find some other fun things as well.
Help us make Hack a Day great. Please.
[Update: we’re working on a comment flagging system currently]
[Update: threading and comment reporting have been added]
Im on the fence on this one. On one point I agree people should not make sexist or racist remarks. But after that I think that anyone that submits their project to a public forum is fair game. If someone sends HAD “blinky led ran from an arduino” and hackaday publishes it then both the poster and HAD deserve “you’re a dumba**” comments. Thats the responsibility of a publisher, to filter out the crap. Just like a newspaper.
Seriously, if you cant take the heat, stay out of the kitchen.
I’m glad HAD didn’t decide to require registration as a way to clean up comments I appalud you on that, personally I just ignored the stupid and trollish ones (if thats a word) but I suppose some don’t like dealing with it, might I also suggest having the community able to press a dislike button on a comment to bring it to your attention so you guys don’t have to go through every post daily
If you couldn’t tell in my previous post, I was being sarcastic. It’s starting to feel like China in here!
trolling sucks when it gets to contributers, it really does. some people wear their creations on their shoulders and take it deeply personally when some jerkwad makes fun of it, thats really sad.
in my mind, moderation has always been a worse evil. I’ve NEVER seen moderators moderate in, uh, moderation. even the best moderators are people too, and have peeves of their own that they take to the job as well as things they like and consider ok. What I ALWAYS see is moderators that get the whole group-think thing going on and it creates a biased communitry that is, in itself, a troll to people that dont think like they do.
Examples that comes to my mind are places like engadget or gizmodo. the writers and moderators really like apple products/android/phone OSs etc. moderators allow commenters to rip on microsoft products and blackberry products and windows etc all day, but comments that are against the things they like will get your post deleted or get you banned. The writers at gizmodo write entire articles of mis-information (that are probably made to be satiracle or, at least, not a factualy piece as much as opinion), but the same wont be tolerated the other way. The community self-filters down to the people with similar beliefs of the moderators and a few “troll” straglers.
the word troll gets thrown around too easily, if you ask me. a troll is someone who throws baseless insults to piss someone else off for fun. A troll is not someone who simply disagrees with you or has an opposite opinion to yourself that they might voice in a comical fashion just as you do to things that you think are silly or wrong.
dy definition, it HAS to happen that way. thats how moderation works. by moderating out the repetitive comedy and half-hearted ribbing, youre filtering out the joksters. these people are not trolls just because you dont have the same sense of humor as them. now your community wont have those kinds of people, they make hacks that could be published too! but it works the other way too, if you DONT get rid of trouble makers, you filter out the people who get their feelings hurt easily. so what can you do? youre kinda screwed either way. get really good moderators who only go after TRUE trolls, and always watch the moderators, too. so you dont end up with a stagnent community of moderators and followers of the moderators beliefs.
just some of my thoughts on moderation as a concept. the begining of the end for hackaday for me, i guess. and i dont really have a good solution.
Are racist comments illegal?
Talking about sexist comments. I remember there was a post which featured a hack by a certain lady, perhaps the one mentioned in this post. And a HaD author allegedly posted some lude comment on her post. Anyone got a link to that old post?
HAD, i can see where you are coming from on this, but i’m in two minds about it. you don’t want to throw the baby out with the bathwater, this is still a good site, and is set apart from some of the other watered-down sites due to its eclectic nature. as for personal attacks or racism etc., thats totally, totally uncool and not very nice at all, you shouldn’t tolerate racism/sexism/bullying, but i didn’t really see too much of that (and i thought you were already removing that anyway). got to admit some of the stuff said about Ms Elsworth is a bit over the top too, just because she happens to be a woman as well as a really good educator, its like nobody has ever seen a woman before. but as for criticism, well you sometimes have to take the rough with the smooth, and that is sometimes a matter of interpretation and personal preference. its about where you draw the line, and that will be different for different people. some of the posters are total ‘amateurs’ who shouldn’t expect any criticism to be fair, but some of the posters are much more organised, almost professional really, asking for donations and make money from advertising etc (which is cool by the way) and they might benefit from listening to a bit of criticism now and again without spitting the dummy out. i’ve commented now and again, usually in a positive manner, normally to ask questions (and been very grateful for the excellent answers), but on the rare occasion that i’ve dared to criticise something its like i’ve taken a dump on somebody’s lawn. don’t go over the top with this and get all fundamentalist on it, there’s occasionally a bit of light hearted banter and humour knocking about in the comments, mixed in with the odd bit of nonsense.
Finally! Thank you Hack-a-Day! I’d actually submit my works if people cleaned up their commenting ways.
Thank you.
This will definitely make it easier to submit really interesting hacks that might otherwise act as flamebait.
I, too, think that there should be a rating system incorporated into HaD’s comments, in addition to arbitrary comment deletion based on negative or off-topic content. For example, lower than 10 negative ratings replaces the comment with
“Comment rated negatively by the community. Click here to see it”
Way to go!
i did not see any bad comments on the board but it is always good to keep the boards family safe
anti troll hack
1st time commenter. I guess my 1st question is why? Why comment to attack and deride? Don’t like someone’s idea or creation? SHOW ’em how it’s done “right’. I applaud all those who create. Sure, to criticize to say”… ya, know, pulling the X signal off of pin 5…” is GREAT. But to say “Your shit sucks etc. is useless whinning and without a working superior alternative is just cowardice. Just like the cowards spewing all manner of insults playing on line. If you wouldn’t say to their face, don’t say it to their screen. Have some self respect! HaD, I think sites like yours and Instructibles are the embodyment of what the Web can do. Best regards to you and ALL THOSE WHO CREATE, HACK AND MOD!
I hope to be that smart (but, truth be told, my time here grows short).
This conversation shouldn’t even be taking place, it’s pretty disgusting some of the idiots who post on here just tarnishes this site no end.
Why oh why won’t you move over to a system like Disqus, problem solved.
Good. This is a change that’s been long overdue.
Thank you HAD, I like where this is going. I believe this will make creativity towards hacking (and not trolling!) flourish.
You all have been doing a wonderful job here at HAD, and I greatly appreciate your work.
I am used to just skimming and ignoring the comment sections of most sites on the Internet, due to the extremely high amount of noise in the SNR. This discriminator in the signal path is much appreciated!
KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!
Fail. Utter fail.
Aside from the outright trolls (which anyone on the internet should realize they’re going to have to live with), the only “sexist” or “racist” remarks I’ve see have been directed at the hackaday *writers*
why? because there is a disturbing tendency to glorify anything done by minority groups simply because they are minorities. “Hi guys look, a *GIRL* made a LED blink! isn’t it awesome!”
This sounds like it’s encouragement for these people, but it’s not, it’s patronizing. Hold all hacks to the same standard and you will get fewer “sexist” remarks. If you think it’s noteworthy that some kid in a developing country was able to do something trivial, you’re basically saying that that country is full of idiots, and the fact that one of them pulled off something that’s pretty easy to do is just AMAZING. As a resident of a developing country, I find it pretty offensive.
That brings us to posting standards. You know why people post “not a hack”? it’s not because they are vicious trolls out to wound and mame. It’s because they have *standards*, and are expressing their displeasure. This rant post makes it out that the negative commenters are attacking hapless souls who just want to live happily together on the internet. That’s mostly untrue. The commenters are displeased because “Using My Arduino To Switch A Relay On And Off Really Fast Part 2” has been essentially equated to truly great hacks, such as the full-on 16-bit computer builds made from wire-wrapped components, by virtue of being posted in the same space and manner.
On further consideration, I think the problem is that HAD has moved from being a compendium of hacks to being a news site. Why? “human interest”! Cute articles about how a 6 year old girl from Liberia is saving the world with her Tupperware water filter. Sound familiar? It’s what all major news sites like to post. The technical merits of a news item are starting to become less and less relevant, and the “newsworthiness” is being considered instead. It’s valid…if you want to be just another tech news site. If you want to remain HAD, please stop.
p.s. and that thing about being “too excited” to post things with correct grammar and spelling is just weaksauce. I can read the entire text of a HAD post in maybe 30 seconds, maybe a minute tops. This isn’t TWITTER ffs. Take a whole *60 seconds* and read over what you’ve written. Maybe even do it twice. Your readers won’t notice a 2 minute lag in posting, but they DO notice all the mistakes, and it irritates them enough that they comment about it.
A:6
V: 7
(For a cam)
i confess that this was brought to my attention via G+… shame on me; i never read the comments here, or only seldom, so i can’t really complain but, if it’s that bad… well, do your thang
I have an idea, if the problem continues to worsen, you could start up a system of where everyone can post to begin with, and the more comments they have that are rated “up” will get a higher status, where as if they are rated “down” they then require moderation to get there comments up. Just a thought, tell me what you think!
If you don’t have anything nice to say… you know the rest.
@Aleks Clark
You hit the nail on the head.
Nope, @octel, I’m an old limey; no yank.
And I don’t find HAD’s actions oppressive … but I DO find the actions of the “spoilers” oppressive. As so many have already said, there are countless fora where those who want to rant can.
Those of us who just want learn in a rant-free environment have our right to freedom, too.
The only thing to do now is to feature more of my project, which are real hacks and stop posting all this crap about arduinos!
Look in the mirror:
http://hackaday.com/2011/07/25/digital-cootie-detector/
“The cootie detector operates on galvanic skin response. It’s actually very similar to an E-Meter, although instead of Thetans this device measures something that actually exists.”
What do you think a Scientologist would make of that?
Conspiracy theory:
HaD purposefully implements this policy to gain the attention of Anonymous. Anonymous hacks/defaces HaD. HaD benefits from the media attention as the latest “victim” of Anonymous.
I think it’s possible.?.?
James, are you also octel?
I did wonder about the comments on here all sounding a little similar. Tsk. At least remember to check the author details before you post ;)
Amen Hack A Day.
I thought this had pretty much always been the policy. As long as it doesn’t get overly censor-rific, I say right on.
I also support a comment rating or spam-marking system if that’s an option. I think it would save you guys and gals a whole lot of time weeding through huge comment logs like this one.
@m4cgyv3r,
It has been. Were just making it official and outlining the guidelines a little better.
LONG time reader first time commenting i agree 100% HAD i stopped reading Comments just for the reason of people hating and being idiots. I don’t mind the “well you should have done it this way” post because it gives you an idea of other ways to do a hack sometimes its better and the featured hacker will change and be happy with the change. i always enjoy the constructive comments as well I’ve been following HAD for a long time and i will say this is the best step you guys have taken in a long time THANK YOU!
Restraining any kind of speech is a bad idea in my view as long as the speech is real (IE it is okay to try to kill spam). However if people want to be negative I think you ought to let them.
Perhaps you could allow users to filter the comments since emails are required you could ID users numerically and allow blocking. dpreview’s forums have an ignore button for posts from trollish users.
Thank the gods… hacking stuff is all about being creative, trolling is anything but creative. Glad to see changes happening :)
I approve of this, It’s been coming for a while now.
I just hope that it doesn’t become a witch hunt for negative or disapproving comments. Some very good points are made against some hacks, and criticising the idea, or execution of them. As a daily reader and occasional commenter I’ve learned quite a few helpful things from negative comments.
I think that good care must be taken with censoring, it can get out of hand quickly, and nothing would hurt the site more than that.
you know, i have to agree with the HAD team. The one thing I actually look forward to is when Jeri puts something new online and HAD features it. Wouldn’t it be sad if she suddenly made HAD stop because of all the bs that comes with it? I would most definitely go elsewhere for my tech fix.
and the spelling and grammar thing, seriously–comment on the content not the context. i know it can get irksome when you read it, but we all make mistakes. you try writing up 5 different posts a day and see how easy it is to keep typos out.
ths ones fer u guise!
anyway ROCK ON H-A-D! been with you since 2006!
Arduino quiche-eaters are too sensitive and cannot read any critics? c’mon…
theres 2 reasons for criticism:
1st: You project is really good, a true Hack, and that makes people jealous.. those rants should be read as “congratulations man, nice”
2nd: You arduino-blinking-leds are NOT a hack, they suck, live with that, maybe next time if you start learning something you will do a great project, but blinking lights – no matter how fast you can do it – can’t be treated equally as a others ‘true hacks’
Tip: a great hack has more than a freakin’ arduino and some leds..
i’ve never been personally overly offended by any comments posted here, but i can understand the need for moderation.
i salute you, HaD, for having the strength to declare this. i look forward to your future efforts.
For the “Not a hack” crowd. The name of the site only implies one Hack A Day, anything else is just extra fun.
I’m glad HaD is doing something about this. I don’t think you will be able to do it w/o having some sort of log on. If someone says something that’s nasty, give them three warnings, on the 4th, delete their account and everything they’ve ever said on your site… Unfortunately, I think you will have to bring the hammer down…
It was great to see this article, It was a long time coming. HAD should be a place of growth for all of us.
I can understand how people can post nasty comments sometimes. There have been a few times that I have come here and been displeased with the most recent posts, but it was because of my own frustrations at the time.
It is hard to work on a project that is not going well, or simply not have an idea for something new to make and not feel frustrated when you read of everyone else and their grandmothers successes. (This is when you think the comment and not write it).
Thanks HAD,
I’ll be back!
The world is full of ass holes, it is part of life ,but If people insist on Cyber-bulling, then they should get their asses toasted.
It is not ‘hard’ to implement, but it does require a little bit of extra work.
As for the ‘arduino-blinking-leds’, that would depend on the age/ EXP. of the contributor.
If the person holds an MSc in electronic engineering then it is not a suitable ‘hack’, but if it is a 5 year old kid or an 80 year old granny who has never done electronics, then its fine.
Atlast! Now i can comment with out getting kicked from behind because of poor grammar and lack of knowledge – this is my second comment in my 3 9 months of reading hackaday(everyday) hihihi
Quoting Penny Arcade is a bad move. Those guys are famous for making a rape joke, then refusing to apologise to a rape victim who complained, and then compounding it by deriding them in a speech at a conference and following up, of course, with another rape joke. Dude is a pretty gross and immature guy.
Anyway, as for the troll problem? Welcome to the internet. Please remember that not every joke is a winner, and not every post is meant to offend.
Alright, here’s my two cents.
I agree with the changes, mainly because the comments section doesn’t exist so we can go “Oh look at that it’s so stupid herpderpherp,” it exists so people can share their improvement ideas, contribute CONSTRUCTIVE criticism, and too request help.
Being a jerk doesn’t do anything but take up server space, it doesn’t help anyone, it doesn’t make you look cool, and it most certainly doesn’t get the hack taken down.
That being said, however, I feel like HaD is getting a lot of the blame for this, when in reality, it’s just as bad on other sites as well, only they already had comment moderation, so it wasn’t as obvious.
And @A7, have you ever tried thinking about someone else? Too you getting some LEDs to blink through an Arduino might not be an accomplishment, but too a noob that might be the thing that hooks them forever. My first hack was a simple LED mod on my PSP. Now that would take me 10 minuets, but back in the day it took me almost a week.
Tip: Not all hacks on here are meant to be great.
All I can say is
Thank You, I have reluctant to send people here from other sites I post on due to the uncivil behavior of more than just a few.
I love this site, there is a wealth of information to be had here I would like to be able to pass on links to that information.
Thank You
Sue
Lively debate but what so many are missing is that it all boils down to being civil towards each other on here just as you would expect in the world outside of the computer monitor. For instance if you go to the car show and see a car that you don’t like you say that it sucks but generally its only you and those with you or who are standing within a few feet that might hear your comment whereas if you see a project on here and you say it sucks in the comment section then it now has the capacity to be heard by billions of people.
Most of the projects on here I like and respect even if its something I have no interest in or could attempt to do and for those I don’t like there has never been a need to commit those feelings to the comments section because it would be pointless to do so.
Free speech has been long dead in the modern world and though it does exist on the web each site operator can implement what ever rules they deem necessary concerning what type of language is used on its site and what kind of written actions as well.
I’ve been coming here for years to look at others projects both good and bad, useful and useless and for a long time I would read the comments section to find additional information about where to find certain parts but over the last two years I’ve stopped using the comments section due to that %5 – %10 of the comments are useful while the rest are negative to say the least.
If you dont like the changes then leave and find another site to go to and hate on the projects so that the rest of us can actually enjoy the site and engage in useful conversation in the comments section of each project about the project.
The old rule.. “Those who can.. DO.. Those who can’t.. CRITICISE”. Its far easier to bag someone elses work and creativity than it is to do anything yourself, and then risk putting it out in view for others to criticise.
That plus the anonymity of the net and you have a space for a bunch of no-skill jealous armchair experts to wank their ego’s by flinging mud at the creations of people with far more mojo than they have.
I think the project author should be able to add their rating to any comments made.. the ratings accumulate on the posters username, and the readers can set the *user* rating-level filter..
so users who always bag end up with *everything* they say rated low and quite likely hidden.. users with a history of making positive useful + rated comments have their views heard first.
Something like that anyway.. So many Humans are a sad lot when given a mask to hide behind.
@bob
of course! it’s obviously the *person* that matters, and not the hack, right?
—- sarcasm line —-
People like bob are why HAD has gone to ‘news’ as opposed to hacks. A hack stands alone, worthwhile it its own right. A “news item” depends on context. Snow in Nebraska? Not news. Snow in Sierra Leone? News.
New rule for HAD writers: Before you post, substitute your name/background for the original hacker’s. Does it still seem worth posting? Is it something you personally would be proud to have accomplished? If so, it’s probably a hack. If not, it’s a piece of sensationalist NEWS.
BRAVO!!!! I have in the past wanted to tell some of the ones leaving comments on how “this is not a hack” or “this sucks” or what have you, to show the rest of us their hacks/projects. I like the simple as well as the complicated hacks that have found a home and support group here on HAD. This is not combat hacking nor is the majority to blame but I can speak for myself in saying that those who believe their talents are so great that the urge to blast or put down someone because their idea to improve on something is below the level they think it should be, needs to find another place to leave comments. There is my two cents I will support any idea the staff thinks is appropriate to squelch the unwanted comments and I will continue to be a loyal reader till they close the doors.
I for one will not change my posting behaviour, if that’s a problem and my posts gets deleted then this site gets null-routed.
And to test how things stand I’m going to share this comment/view:
Censorship does not equate to ‘civil’, civility that is brutally enforced isn’t civil nor civility and I wish you did not suggest otherwise.
Most projects only get 10-40 comments. How bad can it really be?
If there are really so many people “offended” by the comments, they could easily have made positive comments to outweigh the negative.
Moderation is never implemented in moderation. This can only lead to over zealous deletion of posts.
@Stevie
Oh no! Not over zealous deletion of posts! Anything but that please!!