We received a very interesting “hack” today from our good friend [Jonny Dryer] that really got us thinking, but first a little background.
For those that live only inside of a box on top of a mountain (we know who you are), there was an explosion of a British Petroleum oil rig about 40 miles southeast of Venice, LA. Being proclaimed by Carol Browner as “probably the biggest environmental disaster” – stated a month after the accident.
And the oil is still spewing. Now, we’re not ones for criticizing how this event is being handled; no, we left it to the experts.
Back to our point, [Jonny Dryer’s] sent us his plan for slowing the oil spill, by using liquid nitrogen, pretty genius if you ask us. And we were wondering what possible solutions other readers had come up with? Share your thoughts on this situation in the comments.
Has anyone here ven seen the pipe? It’s mangled and bent. Most of the ideas on here would not work at that depth even if the end of the pipe were not half crushed.
http://www.bp.com/liveassets/bp_internet/globalbp/globalbp_uk_english/incident_response/STAGING/local_assets/images/original_plume_1.jpg
Being an engineer working for a large oil and gas company, I have to agree with those who have pointed out the plain fact: plugging this well is a VERY difficult undertaking (for multiple reasons). There is a lot of absolute garbage being thrown around in these comments but some of you have got the right ideas. Regardless of all the speculation going on, the engineers (and team) working on this task will be doing their best to stop this leak, and not only for BP’s (and their own) pocket/s. Surprisingly engineers “have a heart”, that combined with the desire to overcome a problem is great motivation.
Sorry Jonny, the liquid nitrogen idea won’t work as proposed (as others have already pointed out).
@William, in your comments you have examplified why geology students are not engineers.
William:
Do you think you could get lead shot to sink down a vertically pointed firehose? Of course not; the stream would just blast it out the end of the hose, like a bullet out of a barrel.
The well at outlet is at 3500PSI, or 10 times that of the average firehose. This isn’t like dropping rocks down a lazily flowing pipe. It’s like shoving a lead pellet up the bore of a pressure washer.
The quality of the wellbore attachment to the seabed is questionable; if by some magical means the BOP can be replaced/closed/completely capped, the question remains of whether the BOP will just pop right out of the seabed, or the oil will just start coming up the outer annulus.
@Purduecer
Microwaves don’t have enough energy to break molucules apart, all they do is induce rotation. You need energies above the UV-Visible spectrum to break molecular bonds. And Even if you could get an emitter with the correct energy in place the amount of power it would need to be able to pump out in order to break up oil molecules would be immense due to the volume and speed of the exiting oil. It’s the same problem as freezing, delivering enough power over a very short time span.
@Mark
No one is confusing education with intelligence. What they are saying is BP and their employees have years if not decades of individual experience. While it is true there are people who have hacked into ‘secure’ sites, that is quite a different situation. Anyone can grab a book and get their computer to output “Hello Wolrd” but when was the last time you picked up a book on oil prospecting at Barnes & Noble? How many posters have dug a hole any deeper than to plant tulips?
Well drilling, like programming isn’t something you can learn without doing, and the places where you get to do aren’t available to anyone not employed by a petroleum company. Nevermind Drilling in 5000ft of water.
Doing a quick and dirty number crunch, The terminal velocity for a lead ball ranges from 9.3-62.8m/s depending on roundness and diamter(.125″ drag coeff=.48, 3″ drag coeff=.1 respectively). Taking the density of lead to be 11.34g/mL and the density of sea water to be 1.025g/mL. Now the Density of seawater will be slightly higher due to the extreme depth and the low temperature(max density being around 4*C).
This was found using formula 5 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal_velocity .
Now noone knows how much oil is spewing out but as long as they can find a shape/metal combination whose terminal velocity is greater than the speed of the exiting oil, it is possible to slow it using the technique discussed by William.
sorry for the triple post if someone could edit this into the previous post that’d be grand.
for a 3″ lead ball of perfect roundness(Cd of .1) Terminal velocity is 96m/s
@Leithoa,
Slowing was the object of the technique that I was sharing. Slow the flow enough to cement the hole shut.
@stoppo,
The technique was suggested by my father who is a state licensed Geologist & Geophysicist. He, by trade, is an Engineering Geologist with 32 years experience. He then proceeded to show the manual to me.
whatever happened to the “liquid breathing” thing they were working on a while back?
last time i checked it could possibly work down to maybe 1500 feet but using some modifications (partial pressure chamber, entire suit flooded with liquid) it *might* work down to 5K.
needless to say the guy who tries it will be decompressing for three months or more, minimum.
How about trying injecting elemental liquid mercury into the pipe.
I believe that it has a pressure of around 6000 Psi and a density of 14.1 g/cm3 around 6x that of heavy drilling mud and more than elemental lead at 11.34 g/cm (lead actually floats on mercury), this also coupled with the the additional pressure of the overlying sea water, should be enough to stem the flow of oil in order be able to cap it.
This is of course is fully dependent upon the amount of upward pressure of the oil flow and also the surrounding sea temperature as mercury solidifies at -38.86 °C
drop a big bell over it let it sink and cover the hole simple
Someone told me that they harden oil pipes, which in turn makes them more brittle. If we put a large pipe over the bottom of the pipe, only a few more inches bigger, we could have an inflatable ring. That way you are theoretically adding pipe onto the existing pipe. Then use a hydraulic ram to crimp the end of the pipe shut. Imagine a wood clamp. The kind that has two screws on either side of a wooden bar. Then tighten the screws. Now replace the screws with hydraulics. And you can crimp the pipe shut.
Here’s what happened to liquid breathing…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_breathing
The answer is right here!
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2010/6/4/
here’s my humble idea…
Ever heard of quarter shrinking. Basically they use a coil of wire wrapped around a quarter and send a fast high power pulse of current trhough it. Bang! the quarter is now smaller(not mass wise..just diameter wise) and the coil is blown to bits by magnetic repulsion.
so the idea is this. use an rov to wrap a coil around the pipe below the rupture. bring insulated wires to the surface and hook to a huge power source…like say a navy generator and powersupply designed for the job. Bang! you now have a smaller diameter pipe. won’t stop the flow, but sure will cut it down. repeat a few times until you hit the stress limits of the metal. you should by now have a small diameter flow (under more pressure possibly?). easier to deal with at least.
OK, there’s a Google ad saying:
BP SPILL
BLAME OBAMA?
Vote Here Now.
It’s a but funny, but then again it’s very irritating seeing such a dumb thing on a site like Hackaday.
I assume this was not on purpose?
Use sand to slow down the oil spread, more precise will be the usage of the same red clay used in making iron casts, this stuff will blend with the oil and make it heavier so it will drawn to the bottom of ocean, if they want to suck all the oil or containing it before a natural disaster is the use of alkaline material, because alkaline stuff reacts with oils and hydrocarbons, such as lime (CaO).
It is known fact that BP have an opportunity to invest and develop oil first-response emergency technology for many years now. If you ever talked to the execs they’ll say “We are NOT in the oil response business!” eventhough you mention all the risks especially when they cut corners that compromise safety (obviously!).
Anyway, they are a few methods:
1. Large diameter plastic tube that can redirect the oil to a manageable depth and contained it. During the containment, you can extract the contaminants through a siphon pipe.
2. Build a medium-to-large 20-ft diameter geodesic structure with anchor weights as concrete slab with a siphon pipe at the very top.
There are so many other ways to solve but BP will never listen, they are set on what they (BP execs and so-called engineers) think is proper solution but will screw up in the long run.
It’s like giving a schematic to a bunch of monkeys. They will just ignore it and go for the bananas.
@threepointone
“we basically have a near impossible engineering solution on our hands”
Yup. If you think it’s simple, you don’t understand the problem.
@Jack
A man who has some understanding of problem solving – FIRST gather your data, THEN you take Berlin.
Thanks to those sharing the details.
Don’t worry, they managed to stop the Sidoarjo mud flow didn’t they?
Oh…
@Jtaylor: feel free to suggest it to them at any time..
I know xorpunk was trolling for the most part, but I think he had a point for the most part about these people who have all kinds of ideas, but are too self-conscious or pretentious to present them where it counts. It just makes you want to say ‘either shit or get off the pot’.
I guess this is what separates the men from the boys though..hopefully the working men will find a solution soon, it’s sickening seeing earth dieing.
let’s tell Americans that the BOP is full of terrorists
lmao i love how advocating less energy consumption immediately makes me a “troll”
bunch of fat and happy bourgeois first-worlders in here
@octel: anything remotely resembling criticism makes you a ‘troll’ here. This is mostly suburban teens and post grads who can’t ‘hack it’ in the real world so they cling on to counter cultures that have become accessible to the general public.
I’ll bet most of these people with ‘solutions’ have to fragile of a ego to present their ideas and actually contribute to society.
it is what it is. Actions(or lack there of) speak louder than words..
I agree with William. Pressure inside the oil reservoir is due to pressure it suffers from solid layers and ocean water above it. It flows through the well exactly because at that point humans have removed small part of counterweight which still exists everywhere else. If we would just block the pipe, it would be launched out from the bore like a harpoon from the gun muzzle. It has to be filled with a column of material that exercises the same or larger pressure then other parts of “ceiling” at the bottom of the pipe, if we want that filling to remain inside the well. Of course, mud and golf balls are not dense enough, something with larger specific mass is needed.
Looks like its working. Stop clammering on and on with how to plug the thing and start thinking about how to clean it up.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/jun/06/gulf-oil-spill-containment-cap
Alright, lets go with the KISS principle.
Has anyone else ever used a simple screw to cap off a hose on a car engine?
Lathe a big screw with a simple handle an ROV can grasp and twist, and push it into the top of the pipe and twist! It will self seat into the metal (even if its askew, it will still self-tap and stop). If pressure is an issue, make the screw over 2 feet long then cut slits in the sides to allow the oil initially to continue to escape while the screw sets and then keep turning until it seats and shuts down the leak.
[==========]
| | [Handle]
[==========]
|_ |
| \__ | [Threads]
| \_|
|–__–|
|\| | |
| | |\| [vents surrounded by Thread]
|\| | |
| | |\| [vents surrounded by Thread]
|——|
|_ |
| \__ | [Threads]
| \_|
\ /
\ /
TT
This is a better diagram (.. are spaces)
[==========]
..|……|..[Handle]
[==========]
..|_…..|
..|.\__..|..[Threads]
..|….\_|
..|–__–|
..|\|..|.|
..|.|..|\|..[vents surrounded by Thread]
..|\|..|.|
..|.|..|\|..[vents surrounded by Thread]
..|——|
..|_…..|
..|.\__..|..[Threads]
..|….\_|
…\…./
….\../
……|
Although not a solution, I think it nice if BP opened up their ‘spill command center’. Maybe give the public live video feeds of the ‘center’. Have the engineers list out things they thought of and haven’t tried with why they haven’t. Tell/show the public how hard it is to do what they are doing. They should also respond to as many ideas as possible and share their thoughts – is this idea completely impractical, or does it have some merit.
Maybe this is harm BP more that help, specifically image wise. I think many people can not grasp how complex solving this oil leak/spill is and could use some ‘enlightenment’.
@cornelius785
right because BP and the engineers don’t have better things to do …
Why do you think wasting engineers time will solve anything? This is not a problem that the public can fix. You can’t do anything, so grab the popcorn and stfu.
It seems to me that this incident has pointed out how little control oil industry engineers have over their projects. This industry has a startling lack of understanding for the importance of redundancy and a criminal lack of respect for the effects of their mistakes. Take, for instance, the fact that even now, over 20 years on from the Exxon Valdez, tankers still only have a single hull design.
If the rest of us had this approach to our work the world would be a smoldering ruin.
Next time, have multiple redundancy on the sea floor, don’t hire those incompetent morons over at Halliburton for anything important (they f*ck up everything they do in every sector), and check your systems before assuming they work. Don’t call yourself engineers if you don’t take failure into account.
For now, it seems like it would be useful to open up the schematics of the well to the public (in this case the least BP should be worried about is losing design secrets) and allowing competent engineers from fields that aren’t the oil industry to tackle the problem in a rigorous manner.
haha hears a dumb idea that will get ridiculed. You said there’s alot of pressure coming out of the main well. What if you were to “relieve” the pressure, like the relief wells are doing, but put enough relief wells around the existing main well to relieve the pressure. I don’t know, I’m not a man of science, but it seems like it could be possible, though i’m not really thinking of the pressure of water already down there. well there’s my 2 Pesos.
To those proposing any *sudden* shutoff ideas (‘tho I like the thinking behind the magnetic constriction idea), go Google “hydraulic shock” – “Hydraulic shock is the sudden elevation in line pressure caused by a shock wave created by the sudden change in velocity of a non-compressible liquid”
e.g. crude oil.
Basically anything that suddenly blocks the flow will be confronted with the rising pile-driver of the moving column of oil. The chances are that something will give at the top end, blow out sideways near the top, blow the BOP right off the well, almost certainly something that will make the situation far worse.
re: Nuke it. 155mm = 6.1 inch. I understand it’s a 6 inch casing? Even if you could shove a 6.1″ atomic shell a long way down a 6.0″ casing against 6000psi, is it worth a) closing off most other options, and b) even a 1% chance of turning the whole coastline into a perpetual tar pit?
@xorpunk
I’m still trying to figure where you’re coming from; the psychopathology of the troll mentality you so clearly display (because you are actually not very good at it).
So I found your characterisation of who is “mostly” posting here interesting, and while that might even “mostly” be true, you seem to lack the perception to notice when some posters here post from a very considerable depth of working knowledge on some topics.
“and actually contribute to society”
For my part, you can shove that where the sun don’t shine.
I know bugger all about oil wells, but I can recognise a couple of posters here who strike me as the real deal. It’s a recognition of somebody *else* who has carried out Big Projects and understands the many stupid details that frustrate what is conceptually obvious and simple – “cap the well”. A depth of practical experience you seem to wear the lack of as a badge of pride.
I’m an old fart, and whoever you are IRL your posts strike me as coming from a classic case of some just-qualified wet-behind-the-ears “Ginger Beer” who is going to show us all how it’s done, but in reality is totally clueless and the source of much amusement. If that’s now what you want to project of yourself, then it’s in your hands.
Trolling isn’t smart or funny or superior. It’s juvenile and plain pathetic; at the level of tagging or dogs pissing on lampposts.
You sir are why “we can’t have nice things” and HaD will eventually be forced to introduce registration just so you can be banned. And won’t that make you feel smug and self-important about your positive impact on the world?
I vote for the nuke, only if i can pull the trigger!
And why a nuke? Can we not use another type of explosive?
Why not drill another hole to the oil pocket and fill with something that can block the main oil line? Like the mud they used to block the pipes? Then they would stop the leak and have a new line drilled to get oil from.
My first thought was big plastic net to suround the entire oil leak. Then have tankers filter out the oil and pump the water back into the ocean.
p.s. I drive a tahoe! 13mpg and i love every gallon of it. Charge more for gass and the roads will be less congested with less pollution :) i’ll still drive though.
lol bp isnt doing shit to stop this, they have made absolutly 0% progress. im working on a 75 foot shrimp trawler as part of the vessels of oppertunity program and know forsthand how truly toxit the dispersant thier using is. one of my friends a fellow shrimper looking to make some money cleaning this up, is in the hospital after a plane flew over his boat 2 nights in a row dropping disperant on the boat, crew and all. when they got him to the hospital they put him through a decon tent, and confiscated all the personal belongings he had. he later found out they incinerated his clothes. a week later they confiscated his boat, for “toxicoology testing”
they tried to cap it, and failed, they tried just droping a bunch of cement on it, i mean for christs sake, the things thier doing are outright stupid. the government has issued cease and disist orders on their use of the chemical disperant not only because its toxic but also because it basicly just bonds to the oil and turns it to tar, whereupon it sinks to the bottom, releasing toxic chems into the gulf, and the currents and tide is going to be washing this shit up on our coast for the next 20 years. BP has blatantly refused to stop using the dispersant, despite the rising numbers marine wildlife that are showing up dead on the beach. they claim that they put a hose into the pipeline and are siphoning off oil but the hose they’re using is only 4 or 5 inches wide, compared to the 6 foot diamiter of the pipeline how effective do you think that is?
Mercury can be used to stop the flow of oil even at 6000 psi in a 12 inch I.D. pipe.660,000lb of mercury will form a column 1000 ft high and exert a pressure at the bottom of 6000 psi. It will pass the well products without any pressurisation.The mercuy will cost about $2,000,000 and it will not polute deep in the earth.The flow will gradually slow as the volume of murcury accumulates.
Chip me.
All these ideas are just lovely but the troll battle is way better.
Loving your comments xorpunk. You’re my hero!!
@roly, I really hope you’re feeding the trolls on purpose, I do want to see some more abuse flung about :D
Umm…need to think up some food…Americans are lovely and this couldn’t of happened to a nice bunch of well meaning intelligent wonder emperors?
Left turn folks.
All else aside, I would love LOVE to see a documentary about the -=ROV Operators=- and the gear they are piloting down there to get this shit done.
These folks have to be running some major shifts, and no one has mentioned them at all.
The reason that there is any American bashing around this spill is the sheer hypocracy of the outrage at it occuring in the US’ backyard. Americans are quite happy to let spills like this occur around the rest of the world for the sake of cheap fuel for their wasteful gas guzzling vehicles.
http://www.blacklooks.org/2010/05/niger-delta-oil-spills-in-perspective/
using nitrogen is as old as stoneage. one can even freeze oil on the top of the water and gather it in large clods.allready known, allready practiced but production is to expensive as politics say ;-)
@Roly: You should avoid analyzing psychology cause you’re not good at that either..
Others even agree with me, people who don’t want to collaborate where it counts, but want to finger point are just complete a-holes.
Most Americans don’t realize they are the gears that inert the machine that has all the negative effects on the world they so much like to criticize.
Sorry if genuine criticism is considered trolling here. If we’re all going to shut up to avoid hurting the feelings of worthless degenerates we might as well not even communicate, and I’m personally not prepared to do that, so fuck off to parent-funded-counseling or whatever people like you go to, to cope with medial living.
This thread isn’t for ad hominem abuse, it’s meant to brainstorm/vent/ask questions about BP engineering failures.
@xorpunk, you aren’t helping your argument by being profane to other members. You’ve said your piece, we’ve heard it.
@Roly, You’ve made this personal as well, so please stop. You are just goading xorpunk. Do the wise, older-engineer thing and disengage.
@FDP,
Thank you. Everyone please stay somewhat respectful. Disagree all you want, but don’t get offensive/personal.
The company I work for produces a water filled tube that could be used in a variety of ways. http://www.aquadam.net/oilspill/oilspill1.html
Use them on the shorelines and wetlands to keep the oil out. Inflate them 50/50 water air and float them on the water as super booms. AquaDams can sit FEET above the water level, not the 6 inches that the useless booms do.
We’ve already contacted BP. The reply “Oh, well, we’ve got a lot of ideas, we’re looking into it.”
That was last month. Now we’re contacting any and all county agencies we can find that might be affected. Check out the link, and spread the word, please!
This is actually quite simple in abstract. A liquid fusion that can handle a big temperature spectrum, has good tensile strength, and bonds to the solids there including metals under the given environment, without rapid-erosion. It can be mechanically assisted during the fusion if it doesn’t have properties that can be used for bonding.
I’ve officially contributed more than any “old engineer” here. I wonder if he knows that doesn’t mean anything if he isn’t capable of actual engineering and is just some job jockey who regurgitates other peoples work?
It becomes real simple…
1) Have Aquaman call on his under sea pals to swim into the pipe and plug it up
2) Call Ghost Busters, the ectoplasm should plug the sucker up
3) Blame it on Bush, and have someone put their fat finger in the pipe…
4)Big Nuke, have the sun go super nova, that will seal the pipe…
5) Use the flow as a new source of fluid for “oil boarding” our critics
6) Have Pebo grow a pair and sit on the pipe plug it
The trick to doing this is dealing with the high pressure. This is the problem with all the plug / inflate something in the pipe ideas. Send down a larger short section of pipe with an open valve on the end and place it over the existing pipe. Allow the current one to continue leaking while welding a 2 piece reducing coupling to the bottom of the large pipe and exterior of the existing pipe. The welding could be done either robotically or with thermite. (like on railroad tracks) After everything is secure, close the new valve.
I have the ultimate solution!!!
PEANUT BUTTER
Feck! if it sticks my tongue to the roof of my mouth it will damn sure bung up that pipe:P
Anybody think about offering 26 bucks a barrel for the stuff that leaked out? There would be a fleet of amateur oil harvesters in days. It wouldn’t stop the leak, but might lessen the impact.
still leaking: http://www.bp.com/liveassets/bp_internet/globalbp/globalbp_uk_english/incident_response/STAGING/local_assets/html/Skandi_ROV2.html
I guarantee almost anyone that has suggested anything in these comments hasn’t even tried getting involved. Just stating the reality of it somehow makes me a troll, people don’t like being told they’re worthless degenerates..
honestly i dont understand what makes it so hard to just put something over it. they proofed they can do that. so why arent there more of this things? does it really take that long?
what im i missing?
now i dont have much of an idea how it really looks down there obviously, but i just would have ordered several of these container things immediatelly and put them on there.