As reported by the BBC, the United States is set to impose a 25% tariff on over 800 categories of Chinese goods. The tariffs are due to come into effect in three weeks, on July 6th. Thousands of different products are covered under this new tariff, and by every account, electronic designers will be hit hard. Your BOM cost just increased by 25%.
The reason for this tariff is laid out in a report (PDF) from the Office of the United States Trade Representative. In short, this tariff is retaliation for the Chinese government subsidizing businesses to steal market share and as punishment for stealing IP. As for what products will now receive the 25% tariff, a partial list is available here (PDF). The most interesting product, by far, is nuclear reactors. This is a very specific list; one line item is, ‘multiphase AC motors, with an output exceeding 746 Watts but not exceeding 750 Watts’.
Of importance to Hackaday readers is the list of electronic components covered by the new tariff. Tantalum capacitors are covered, as are ceramic caps. Metal oxide resistors are covered. LEDs, integrated circuits including processors, controllers, and memories, and printed circuit assemblies are covered under this tariff. In short, nearly every bit that goes into anything electronic is covered.
This will hurt all electronics manufacturers in the United States. For a quick example, I’m working on a project using half a million LEDs. I bought these LEDs (120 reels) two months ago for a few thousand dollars. This was a fantastic buy; half a million of the cheapest LEDs I could find on Mouser would cost seventeen thousand dollars. Sourcing from China saved thousands, and if I were to do this again, I may be hit with a 25% tariff. Of course; the price on the parts from Mouser will also go up — Kingbright LEDs are also made in China. Right now, I have $3000 worth of ESP-12e modules sitting on my desk. If I bought these three weeks from now, these reels of WiFi modules would cost $3750.
There are stories of a few low-volume manufacturers based in the United States getting around customs and import duties. One of these stories involves the inexplicable use of the boxes Beats headphones come in. But (proper) electronics manufacturing isn’t usually done by simply throwing money at random people in China or committing customs fraud. These tariffs will hit US-based electronics manufacturers hard, and the margins on electronics may not be high enough to absorb a 25% increase in the cost of materials.
Electronics made in America just got 25% more expensive to produce.
Good, now more American manufacturers can step up to the plate, produce and employ locally, keeping the money in the local economy.
Why exactly do you want electronics produced in the US? I mean, I don’t want to buy local wine, after all. I *could*, but it’s total garbage, because it’s a terrible place to grow grapes and wine.
Why doesn’t it make sense for individual countries to focus on doing what they do best?
After years of repeatedly getting sold counterfeit goods from “reputable sources” in Shenzhen with no avenue to find restitution, I’d be happy with knowing that a manufacturer is on the same soil as I am and, as a result, is open to the ever-present money-sink that is our legal system should they try to screw me over.
“After years of repeatedly getting sold counterfeit goods from “reputable sources” in Shenzhen with no avenue to find restitution”
Did you ever think that maybe the problem wasn’t the country, but your “reputable sources”?
This pretty much matches my firewall settings too :)
Get used to that firewall, the next one you buy could be up to 25% more expensive.
And you’ll pay much higher prices so they can pay the litigation lawyers.
so buy your stuff from american sources. but don’t stop ME from buying whatever i want from whomever i wish.
“Why doesn’t it make sense for individual countries to focus on doing what they do best?”
As in China focusing on IP theft and slave labor?
In celebration of the Gig economy, I’m going to hail a Uber driver.
The phone you run that Uber app on could cost 25% more soon.
If these were sanctions against individual companies for doing that, I’d have no problem with them. Blanket tariffs don’t help that.
Pat, you clearly don’t understand how China does business. Sanction one company, and their products would be sold through an unsanctioned on, aided and abetted by the Chinese government.
So tariff all Chinese imports except those from companies that comply with intellectual property law. Blanket taxing an entire country doesn’t do encourage anything.
I bet all your Arduinos, nRF24L01s, FT232s and many other things came from respected manufacturers from USA or Taiwan. And your iPhone/iPad/iAnything was made in USA, not in Foxconn factory in China…
ESP8266
Slave labor in China ? Nothing compared with Saudiis and Quatariis nowadays :-p
The electronic components are one very small part of the list. I bet that nuclear reactors imported from China are not created by stealing IP…
The problem with producing in the U.S. is the cost of energy and wages – it is significantly more expensive to produce these materials in the US. That’s why companies have outsourced to places like China. Also, the raw materials (aluminum, steel, etc.) typically come from Chinese producers, so will also suffer from the new tariffs.
I’m still divided on the new $50bil tariff plan, because it may in fact encourage new jobs and businesses in the U.S., renew mining of raw materials, etc., however, it may also encourage countries (other than China) to step up to the plate and produce more, better products – think of the capacitor plague: Japanese caps are superior to Taiwanese caps, right? The demand for Japan-made capacitors may go up, which in turn would eventually cause the production costs to go down. Think broader than just the U.S. and China – this may be an opportunity in disguise for the entire world.
The biggest issue with the new tariffs is simply that it will take some time to see how it truly affects the market; “NOT Made in China” may be a very common sticker in the near future.
Energy cost can’t be the reason. Some Chinese factories moved production to the US to take advantage of the lower electricity cost. About 20 cents/kWh and $8/gallon is quite normal in many places around the world.
jaap said: “Energy cost can’t be the reason. Some Chinese factories moved production to the US to take advantage of the lower electricity cost.”
Which companies exactly? The average cost of electricity in the US is $.12/Kwh. In China its $.08/Kwh. That doesn’t even being to cover the cost of moving production here, and the *VASTLY* higher cost of labor. So tell us please, which companies exactly have moved?
Here in my rust-belt US city electricity is only some fraction of a cent higher than your $0.08 / Kwh estimate for China. And, our once vanishing factories have been rebounding. Hmmm… maybe those that characterize the US as being so expensive should consider parts of the country that are neither silicon valley nor expensively converted desert.
Energy costs in the ‘civilised’ West are conflated by the adherence to the Global Warming scam that ‘necessitates’ a reduction in CO2 (and demonisation of it as a ‘pollutant’).
You are correct to state that [energy is the key] as this is the central factor in ALL societies and their potential for growth.
But when a country can deliver goods to your doorstep cheaper than you can purchase even 1/10th of the actual parts in your own country you have to question HOW they manage that – cheap labour and dodgy QC may be one part of it but if it results in your local supplier(s) going bust then you only have yourself to blame when the foreign supply gets cut off and you’ve nowhere to go to fulfil your shopping list.
What country is your tinfoil hat manufactured in?
Exactly right…and guess what country is exempt from lowering these “alleged” global warming gasses? China, that is correct. I happen to know that this global warming scam is just another method to redistribute money from rich countries to poor countries and I am glad we are no longer playing.
@PirateLabs
I don’t get it. If all these gasses are only allegedly pollutants and global warming contributors, why are you then using an argument about China being the biggest emitter.
Would also be interested to see how china is exempt from international agreements. As far as I know it was only the USA which pulled out of the Paris agreement in 2017.
And what’s up with all you people knowing so many secrets that you have to put EVERYTHING in ‘citation marks’, is the because doing air quotes signals that you “know better” (hope i did it right there). I think that form of communication was abandoned in high-school.
Because HaD’s commenting system is brain dead, I’m replying to you instead of PirateLabs
@PirateLabs said: “guess what country is exempt from lowering these “alleged” global warming gasses?”
“Alleged” my god, do idiot deniers like you still really exist? The science DOES NOT lie. CO2 *IS* a greenhouse gas. Full stop.
And no, China is *NOT* “exempt”. China and India don’t “have to take steps until 2030”, but in order to meet goals set forth in the Paris climate agreement, they need to be taking steps now to meet goals by 2030.
Here’s a fun fact: Per capita, Americans produce *TWICE* the CO2 of both China and India *COMBINED*
https://www.factcheck.org/2017/03/pruitt-paris-accord/
” I happen to know that this global warming scam is just another method to redistribute money from rich countries to poor countries”
Oh *really*??? You “KNOW” this how exactly? You can’t even get the basic science right.
China’s emissions have peaked, their over all energy consumption has gone *DOWN*, and they’re deploying renewables faster than any other nation. Last year nearly HALF of the world’s new renewable energy investment of $279.8 billion came from China. China outspends the US in renewables 3:1.
https://qz.com/1247527/for-every-1-the-us-put-into-renewable-energy-last-year-china-put-in-3/
>I am glad we are no longer playing.
You are part of the problem.
The problem with producing in the U.S. is the cost of HEALTHCARE. Companies pay for the health care of their employees, there is no denying it, either through taxes or insurance. Why would a company set up shop in the US where they have to pay stupid random extortion level rates for health care for their employees? Why not go to an actual civilized country where the government takes care of health care and manages costs?
Most of my US friends must pay employee insurance premiums themselves, and the fragmented nature of actual coverage is dangerous. i.e. If you go to the wrong hospital, it could literally bankrupt you.
1.) Care is not “Free” in the North, but if you are poor it is paid for you. Canadians pay for their health-care with higher taxes, but still lower than your minimal-coverage insurance premiums at about $900/yr ($682/yr USD) for a working adult. Note, the law >>ensures<>covered<<, as the Charter-of-Rights (is similar to the US constitution) states you must be protected even as a resident/tax-payer. Tommy Douglas wasn't perfect, but he fundamentally changed our community priorities after WWII.
2.) The Canadian provincial plans will cover all hospitals and most clinics, as privatization is limited to specialists like dentists/orthopedics. US lobbyists have tried for years to infest our care system with Nixon era policies, but these politicians are never in service long enough to complete such schemes (gangs of little old ladies will beat down the forgetful).
3.) In the 1980's you didn't even need to show ID, but the number of US residents that kept jumping the Canadian boarder for "free" care skyrocketed after a certain US documentary aired. To this day, we still get US residents seeking lower-cost generic medications and basic care services. Most Canadians see an American retiree eating cat-food to afford care as a sin against God. Trump can suggest a 600% increase in medication costs is justifiable for national security, but we won't accept exploiting vulnerable people anyplace as a business opportunity. Americans are still welcome, but be aware our income taxes can hit hard for rich folks that stay too long.
4.) Canadian Academic systems train more US doctors, nurses, and scientists than most ever guess. Also, we share taxpayer funded research with the global community to improve the quality of life for everyone. We understood that taking care of families with preventative care ultimately reduces the probability of future societal problems, and the costs of those issues like law enforcement.
Personal note,
I was assigned to a large project with an Engineer in the states who confessed to me he had Cancer for the second time. He actually asked if moving his family to my country would help… Apparently it was common that he couldn't get US coverage again after surviving his first experience… even though he'd paid into his privatized union plan for 17 years. I explained his insurance company would probably be considered illegal in Canada, and suggested if things don't work out locally than move to increase his chances of survival. Even if people don't update their coverage in Canada, the public plan will usually back-date basic coverage a few months while you couldn't get coverage. Note, many US families get dual-citizenship, but remain active US taxpayers due to complex working lives.
I was hopeful that the recent US bipartisan care reforms would help these working US citizens, and was rather disappointed few seem to have followed though with sustainable policies. The USA plans seem fine if you are under 30 (statistically healthier), think you are immortal, and have excess income. However, chances are you or your family will get seriously sick at some point, and you will certainly be more vulnerable if you are poor. Thus, it is rather probable your family will be locked in a poverty cycle if the insurance plans are strategically predatory, and people can no longer work due to serious illness.
Feel free to ask any questions, as people seem to get confused about the higher rate of Moose related fatalities in remote areas. =)
Because in such country governement eats between 30/50% of your plate.
@mac012345 You seem to be forgetting the many tax scandals in these countries. Take the UK for instance, I pay a higher percentage in Tax than ANY big business, ass they have found nice loop holes that allow for some interesting legal loopholes to avoid paying their fairshare of tax.The same goes for the super rich.
Using tax as a barrier to a company operating inn certain countries is not a good argument, as they can, and do, easily skirt the rules for their own benefit.
You just cannot compare grapes with electronic components. There are necessary conditions to grow good grapes for your wine, which may not be the best in the US, so wine is imported.
But… do you need any special condition to manufacture components? well, maybe good technology, which is most designed and engineered in the US, not at the same price than in china, but good at last. Yes. it will be more expensive than components from china. But US would have more industry and exportations, making its currency stronger.
Just remember: markets are self balancing, when something is too expensive, you’ll not buy anymore and price will decrease, or you will buy to another vendor and the same’s going to happen, till it realises the demand is high and it can increase the price; you’ll go to the cheapest option. Self balancing.
it’s self balancing… so we need tariffs? don’t misunderstand me, I am all for promoting independence, but instead of taxing the consumer to benefit a select sector’s _sales/throughput_ the levied tariffs should be used award prizes for open source improvements to open source factories. I.e. given a certain open source capacitor factory, if you can improve the energy efficiency or whatever of this or that part of a factory, you win this or that predetermined price. Then we are truly sponsoring independence, as anyone is free to enter the market and compete. Just blindly applying tarrifs is just taxing the population for the benefit of a small sector’s current established leading companies.
“Self balancing.”
Oh come on now, while there are self-balancing forces at work in truly open markets (along with forces of collusion, monopoly, consumer-psychology-manipulation and so on), the Chinese have a very clear strategy at play, basically to steal IP and build capacity, both through legal “requirements” and “Bamboo networking”.
How do you counter that? I’m not sure tariffs are the best way, being rather ham-fisted, but, Trump.
“You just cannot compare grapes with electronic components. There are necessary conditions to grow good grapes for your wine, which may not be the best in the US, so wine is imported.”
You want a better example? Fine – take pineapples. Pineapples grow fantastic in Hawaii. It’s pretty much ideal. But they basically don’t grow them at all anymore, because they don’t have the capacity to produce them at quantities to compete. It’s just not a good use of very expensive land that can be used for something else.
So what’s the analogy for electronics production? People. Using people in the US for manufacturing just isn’t a good idea – educational attainment in the US is very high. It doesn’t make sense to use a highly-educated workforce to produce goods requiring not much education. Note that China of course is catching up, but because of the size of China’s population, there will always be a much larger group with less education.
Now again, like I said, if this were specifically to target IP violations by Chinese companies, that’s fine – but blanket tariffs don’t do that.
I’ve got a Hawaiian pineapple sitting on my kitchen table. I ate one last week, too. Delicious.
The reason that they have less market share, and your supermarket might not buy them, is that they’re a different variety than the Costa Rican ones that have higher yields and higher sugar content. They do however have more flavor. But the majority of consumers don’t want to pay 10-15% more money for a fruit that is 10-15% smaller, but with stronger flavor. And if you do want it, you’ll need to shop at a store that sells hippie food. On the west coast of the US, that is every supermarket, but in many places they have the hippies segregated and you’ll need to go to a special store.
I think growing orchids makes more money per acre in Hawaii, as does papaya. A pineapple usually only sells for $3 retail.
And the US has lots of low-education workers. You don’t want uneducated workers for high tech factories, you want workers that understand algebra and can convert units. Most of the unemployed in the US are good candidates for that type of labor.
The cost savings seem to be mostly that in the US there would be lots of IP encumbrance that limits access to very large, vertically-integrated companies, and in China they just copy it all for free.
Also the idea that increasing parts cost by 25% increases the cost of making electronics in the US is specious on its face; things that are made here don’t pay that 25%, and things that are assembled here don’t pay 100% of their costs for parts. The only way something you’re selling in the US got 25% more expensive to you is if you are not in fact making it here at all!
And nevermind that the US produces some of the highest quality wine in the world…
“I’ve got a Hawaiian pineapple sitting on my kitchen table. I ate one last week, too. Delicious.”
I did too… when I lived there. But as of 2015, all pineapple in the US is imported.
“The reason that they have less market share, and your supermarket might not buy them, is that they’re a different variety than the Costa Rican ones that have higher yields and higher sugar content. ”
Uh… no. The reason that supermarkets don’t carry them is that the only pineapple production in Hawaii is around 2800 acres at the Dole plantation on Oahu. That’s it. So if your pineapple wasn’t a Dole pineapple (and you can get them to ship it to you!), you got conned.
“Production of canned pineapple peaked in 1957, but the stage was set for the decline of the Hawaii industry when Del Monte, one of Hawaii’s largest canners, established the Philippine Packing Corporation (PPC) in the Philippines in the 1930s. The expansion of the PPC after World War II, followed by the establishment of plantations and canneries by Castle and Cooke’s Dole division in the Philippines in 1964 and in Thailand in 1972, sped the decline. The decline occurred mainly because foreign-based canneries had labor costs approximately one-tenth those in Hawaii.” – “Hawaii Pineapple: The Rise and Fall of an Industry.”
The variant developed in Hawaii – Smooth Cayenne – was the one grown everywhere until the introduction of the MD-2 in the 1990s/2000s. Same variant. They stopped doing it in Hawaii because of land prices. You’re extremely wrong on this.
“And the US has lots of low-education workers. You don’t want uneducated workers for high tech factories, you want workers that understand algebra and can convert units.”
What the heck kind of factory worker is sitting around doing algebra? The majority of the work is just electronics assembly. That doesn’t need algebra, units, or anything else. It just needs someone with good eyesight and fine motor skills.
Yes, the US has low-education workers. China has more. A *lot* more. Less so now, and so it won’t be surprising in the next 20 years for production to shift away from China as well.
I should clarify that I meant that Dole has the only *serious* pineapple production in Hawaii. Obviously there are few-acre family farms supplying boutique varietals, and there might be a few locations on the mainland where you can buy them. But there’s not enough pineapple production left in Hawaii to supply to stores across the US. Not even the hippie ones.
“But… do you need any special condition to manufacture components?”
Manufacturing of most kinds probably should not be done in California.
Why? It’s the same problem as running ABS through your 3d printer in a small enclosed room. Temperature inversions, prevailing winds and the rocky mountains combine to make it a trap for air pollution. I would imagine there are other places with similar issues so yes, there are conditions that are worse than others for manufacturing components.
You couldn’t/shouldn’t do it in California, because, “The State of California has determined (enter any substance here) to be cancerous.”
ure it mkes sense we should kept in much of what China manufacture and exports, was manufacture and exported by the USA,and many European nations
1 – It kills self-sufficiency.
2 – It stifles innovation.
3 – It destroys entire industrial sectors and causes massive job losses.
4 – Reduces Competition between countries over the production and distribution of particular good/services hence encouraging monopolies
4 – Imagine the intellectual discussions that people will have if their entire country is reduced to the mass production of nothing but mangoes, or chicken, or real-estate, or porn.
last point should’ve been 5.
So I take it you have been to the Philippines?
1: The entire idea of self-sufficiency is insane. We live on a finite planet. Limiting yourself to only your own resources is nuts, and impossible in some cases. You can get the exact same effect by making sure that you have equal leverage with any trading partner.
2: There’s no evidence for this, given the large number of companies that have R&D in the US and manufacturing overseas.
3: It makes no sense to subsidize an unprofitable industry. If a market sector can’t compete, it needs to adapt. Maintaining an industry that can’t maintain itself is just a long-term failing solution. Coal companies have been begging for this for years, and pretty much everyone agrees that all of their arguments are just crap.
4: If Country A can make product A cheaper than Country B, subsidizing Country B’s production to maintain a competitor to product A makes no sense. That’s not competition – Country B has no leverage over Country A. And if you’re worried about Country A spiking the price of said product because Country B stops making it, find a way for companies in Country B to gain leverage over the companies in Country A. If you’re forced to subsidize production to stay in a market, long term you’ll lose. And it should be noted that a tariff is a bad way to subsidize something, since you gain no leverage in other countries.
5: Countries don’t have to produce *any* physical good! The main export of the United States should be *knowledge* (and applied knowledge). We’re one of the highest-educated countries on the planet. Not optimizing your country to its global strengths is a losing proposition, long-term.
Just wait. i bet Trump imposes a 25% on wine as well soon to support US based production!
Because hundreds of thousands of Americans need jobs.
Keeping the money in the local economy by off-shoring the profits, you mean?
Look at every multi-billion dollar company and you’ll find 50 ways to off-shore their money.
Dont be fooled.
My only hope is is the start of the deal that kills off chinas patent-ignoring-ripoff-idea-stealing industry, that any manufacturer has ever been kept awake at night worrying about.
Mr art of the deal, make it happen
Kind of hard to do that when in the name of outsourcing many companies sold their soul. Sucks to be them I suppose.
That’s the last thing happening due to this.
Bet it only pissed off those trying to do legit business instead.
But this kind of shortsighted decisions are becoming a political staple.
Because the US is the only country on the planet buying stuff from China… Sure, it’ll make a dent, but I don’t think the impact will be as big as you think.
We are #2 of 19. Source WTO website. I’m too new for links.
Have you ever heard about so called free market? It means that the provider of goods with best quality to price ratio sells more than others. When government imposes a tax to make local providers of expensive crap cheaper than foreign providers of quality products, we call it a centrally-controlled economy. You will find it in many socialist countries. Soviet Union and their satelite countries were fond of that because they knew their crap sucks so they made it very hard for ordinary people to get quality products from other countries. I lost an eye because of that…
Your example does not hold water here – china is on the lower end of the quality scale compared to the US and the soviet bloc wanted to keep the nice goods out, not keep the inferior goods out like the us is doing right now.
I love me some free market, but when almost every country in the world has import tarriffs on goods from china EXCEPT the us, the us is disadvantaging itself unfairly. I think that in this instance the defacto standard of import taffiffs is a good way to punish a majorly communist slave wage labour country for its thinly disguised labour camp suicide net industries.
Prices going up is never a good thing though, and sorry about your eye!
Soviet Block wanted to keep people insulated from better quality of life in capitalist countries. North Korea does the same. Still people with connections or lots of money were able to get some semi-illegal imports. My father when was 17, spent entire summer working on construction site just to buy a pair of genuine jeans smuggled from West Germany to Poland in 1970’s…
It’s not about quality of goods really. It’s all about the costs of labour. USA can’t compete so they go the tax/tariff route to fix unfixable. And they left a loophole for major corporations, like Apple, Xiaomi, Samsung and just anyone else manufacturing in China, to exploit. I bet my dead eye that Trump and his friends hold interests in companies who will benefit from this unfair taxation…
Nonsense. iPhones and Playstations are also built in China. China manufactures to spec: you want cheap, you get crap. don’t blame the Chinese, blame the Western companies who want to cut costs to increase their own margins.
This is exactly the issue – but not only companies but individuals as well. We have all got used to cheap goods – are they goods we need? NO
I like paying as little as possible but Im not so ignorant to realise that cheapness has to come from somewhere. Whether its wages or conditions or just quality.
Stuff at the moment is too cheap, we replace our $1000 mobile phones every 2 years (or less) what the F for – because we can.
we have become lazy and on the endless pursuit of ooooh I want the nice shiny new one….
It’s not really accurate to say that all of China manufactures to specification. As in other parts of the world, there are companies that do good work and some that cut corners. It just feels like it is more likely to happen in China and the ability to do something about it is more limited. Maybe it actually is?
This all has to do with currency value.
costs of manufacturation in China are very low in US dollars; this is because china has a weak currency. HOW ON EARTH is this possible if everybody is buying from china? World’s currency has a lot of offer to them, so higher offer, lower value, then China’s currency is stronger than them. Well, let me introduce you to… CURRENCY INTERVENTION. This sensible one is what allows a country to intentionally weaken their currency, so it’s cheap for the rest of the world, and because of that every country will keep buying from them, because it is cheap.
If this wouldn’t be done, china’s currency would get stronger and stronger with the continuous exported goods and the enormous other countries’ currency offer -to buy these goods-. Then, as everyone knows, the cost would be now more expensive, and maybe it’s now cheaper to buy to Germany, to say, and it’s closer too. Time happens and this cycle would repeat over and over again, this is the markets first law.
But oh! I forgot China MUST keep their industry high because they have the most populated country in the world… could you imagine what would happen if 50% of the factories would not exist anymore? What’s people going to do for a living? They need to eat, they need to spend their time, they need goods, etc. Till now, no-taxes allowed almost zero-cost for US importers and huge gains, but US industry is dead because who’s going to buy local if they can buy the same good in China but 5 times cheaper?
Generally, if you want quality from a Chinese manufacturer, you need a representative of your company on-site in China to maintain quality. Otherwise they’ll cheat you any way they can.
This is a poor way to mitigate the effects of globalization. It only means the components/parts/tools which were coming from China will now have to be sourced elsewhere (other east Asian countries, duh) at a greater cost which will be passed onto consumers.
Considering globalization is moving from China to countries like Vietnam already, the “race to the bottom” will be going for awhile.
Let be honest it’ll never stop. As you say companies will just find somewhere else that’s cheaper unless you suddenly block all import but we’ll see what that does for your economy. Trump hypocrisy seems know no bounds only the other day he was complaining about canadian protectionism while intesigateing his own protectionist practices.
I’ve long wondered if Africa will be the last place left to exploit for labor before we run out of countries.
Large portions of Africa lack the infrastructure to become a major global player now, but maybe in the distant future.
Make Wakanda Great Again.
We kiiiinda already exploited labour from Africa. Like, a lot.
Vietnam isn’t really that big. Industries trying to shift there seem to be splitting it between Vietnam and Thailand, and Thailand doesn’t have the same low costs. That implies that plan B is already not entirely sufficient.
Not everything that you see going from A to B could realistically make it to Z or ZZ or whatever the needed limit would be to prevent the practice of tariffs from eventually being applied consistently; it all depends on the persistence of the policy. In this case, obviously it isn’t going to be a consistent policy.
The main thing that will eventually stop this policy is that the vast majority of people involved in business and politics in the US are against it, so everybody knows it is temporary. If it was going to be a longterm effort, everybody would be building factories in Texas instead of Vietnam.
The company I work for got a quote for a molding tool from China, and then got a quote for the same tool in the United States. The difference was on the order of 10x. 25% wouldn’t even get you close.
The Chinese molds are often unusable when they get here. Often the local shops have to rework the molds when they get here to make them even usable. Then they only last for short runs.
I hear both arguments a lot, but if what you say is true, why would [Padrote] bother to mention it? I’d like to hear his opinion whether the mold was satisfactory (longevity etc) for the job.
It’s not inconceivable to me that for many applications the chinese mold quality is sufficient, or that he is talking about a higher quality chinese mold that is still plenty cheaper than US mold.
Similarily product designers often overstate tolerances…
Padrote doesn’t work in the US. The country he is in has high tariffs on US imports.
What country does Padrote live in that would have a roughly 10x import tarrif?
I saw some comments on this article talking about Europes import tarrifs, sure there are some relatively low import tariffs, and an often more substantial VAT. I often have the impression people from the US interpret the EU VAT system as import tariffs, and as if it were some unfair discrimination towards the US, but really VAT is just Europe’s sales tax. So it seems like EU levies some unfair “extra” tax (VAT), in reality it is just the equivalent of US sales tax. Imagine europeans bitching about having to pay unfair “silly tariffs” names “sales tax”, and pretend its some big discrimination against Europeans… boring, no?
@someone- Argentina
Tip: It’s quicker to just say “I don’t understand economics” instead.
A bad post by Tyler Blesch, everyone
You meant to say FAKE NEWS, certainly :oP This is great for us non-US folks! We still buy the parts for cheap (and metals too!). Our labor and energy is cheaper, we even have design and manufacturing expertise *and* better healthcare. A great time to buy non-american! :) It’s truly a fantastic time for everyone else! :)
You might still not have cheaper metals.
Perhaps it is true that electronic parts are cheaper where you are, but for many people even after adding the 25% in the US, the cheapest way to get a lot of things will still be mail order from the US. So maybe they’re slightly more likely to buy the more expensive local part, so maybe it is at least moderately good for the person selling it.
is it, though?
Yes.
plus one million
More likely it just means that ‘American’ manufacturers will just ramp up the rate at which they move their factories and jobs elsewhere.
I could see a lot of companies who currently make stuff in the US and who use inputs from China that are on this list deciding to move their manufacturing to somewhere like Mexico and import the finished products to the US from there.
Which is exactly why the Trump administration want’s higher import taxes on products manufactured by US companies in Mexico and imported into the US. That was one of his key campaign positions.
These tariffs on components is just one part of the overall plan to force companies to start making things in the US again. Tax cuts across the board, making it cheaper for companies to do business in the US as well as putting more money in the pocket of the US consumer are also part of it. It may or may not work, and it will certainly mean the cost of certain goods goes up, but considering the poor state of US manufacturing right now it’s worth a try.
Yep, because they’ll have that foundry built, commissioned, filled with knowledgeable staff and cranking out 100% yields by next week!
Exactly.
You ever seen Mexicans work?
5 Mexicans on a job site I worked on could drywall an entire 6 story hotel, 100 rooms per floor, including the hallways, in less than a week…
Get 100 of those guys to build a factory? Done before you can say “Adios boss, jobs done.”
Okay, so there’s your empty building… now what about what goes inside?
Bearing in mind that those who used to do this in the US have retired already, some even died…
Many of the factory machines are still built in the US, if the Chinese workers can decipher the manual hopefully American workers can!
When they built a giant DRAM factory in my community, they hired mostly local workers who had never done that sort of work before. They didn’t have to wait any long period of time before opening because of training; the training was pretty normal training for specific jobs, not like some sort of college course. The main thing is forcing them through a bunch of hoops that eventually teach them how seriously to take all the fiddly-seeming rules needed for clean manufacturing environments. After that it is small number of buttons and LED indicators.
One problem is they shipped the tooling for making things like LEDs and capacitors to China back in the late 1990s and early 2000s
So it most likely might be a Japanese or Taiwanese supplier who steps up to fill the void as they still produce these components unless some of the smaller US semiconductor companies decide to capitalize on the situation which will likely require low interest loans to be provided.
yeah, a Japanese or Taiwanese supplier who just buys his stuff in China and is moving those boxes directly to the US to bypass the tax.
Bruno’s comment on artificially keeping ones currency valuation abnormally low is spot on.
Its amazing how many posters here like mime above think someone in Japan or Taiwan is going to import from China and resell here, when the entire reason for the tariff is to stop _exactly_ this!
More than likely, the market will respond with other manf’s upgrading and expanding production, both locally in the USA for national security reasons, and in other countries.
We’ve all become addicted to the cheap crack from China, short-sightedly laughing inside at what we get for pennies on the dollar, while totally dismissing all the regular joe’s put out of work by China’s not so sly ploy.
Short term there will be higher prices, longer term prices will drop as non-Chinese manf’s step in.
I hate to say this but you’re pretty delusional if you think you’re going to see IC foundries and the like in the USA anytime soon.
Both Samsung and Global Foundries have foundry service manufacturing plants in the U.S.. https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R44544.pdf table 2, page 10.
Japanese companies are generally happy to license technology to American companies for local production, except where they’re doing the production 100% in Japan. And they’re the main R&D players in LEDs, for a long time.
LEDs are so cheap, who cares about adding 25%? Only people selling plastic junk that is made in China, probably not people selling things made in the USA. The old tech that is made everywhere costs more to warehouse and dispense into bags than it does to actually buy a shipping container full of them.
I buy electronic components from a US distributor and I already select parts from all over the world. Only some small percent are from China; in many cases I’m already paying a 2% premium or something for a higher quality part. If the very cheapest parts before went up 25%, the cheapest pin-compatible part probably only went up 0.5% or something; a few cents. In many cases the Malaysian part was already the same price, it just has less name recognition, and will now be cheaper, and the retail price didn’t change.
“wtf I love tariffs and big government getting in the way of business now!”
Maybe King George here will put a tax on tea next. Dummies.
lol the tea party is manifestly it’s own antithesis
If you’re manufacturing electronic devices in the US, importing your reels of resistors and ICs and LEDs… obviously slapping a large tariff on those components makes it very tempting just to move the manufacturing of the finished electronic device offshore! Why import the components when you can just manufacture the whole thing in Shenzhen?
Very bad deal. Worst deal. Not a good deal.
How many manufacturers in the US are manufacturing ceramic capacitors, resistors, LEDs and ICs?
If you want to manufacture your stuff in the US, well, OK – as long as you’ve got the manufacturing capability in the US to do so, and you’re willing to compete financially with everybody else manufacturing stuff around the world.
And where are you getting your ICs, capacitors and LEDs from? From US manufacturers?
Can you seriously build a US-only supply chain starting from only the sand (and indium, gallium, arsenic etc) mines?
Do those US manufacturers even exist? What is the pricing like?
Where is Fairchild or Texas Instruments actually doing the fab?
If a certain manufacturing industry for certain components *does not exist* in your country, what is the tariff supposed to be protecting? What’s the point of the tariff if there’s no industry there to protect?
Will the tariff “bring the industry back”?
You can’t just rapidly build a new semiconductor fab tomorrow in response to these tariffs, that’s the problem.
And they’re not going to spend a billion dollars just for a few years until the next government changes the tariffs.
Jesus, we’re talking discrete components here.
Intel and others are popping up nm fabs all over the country, with many non-Chinese companies busting down the door to set up shop here.
China has the market cornered in many areas, basically has the developed world by the short ones.
A little pain now is worth it, vs refusing Chinese dictates in 5-10 years time wherein they threaten to stop same shipments as retalation for not doing what they say. Sort of like Russia did with their gas pipeline in EU, only this would be far worse.
Strategic metals.
> Jesus, we’re talking discrete components here.
> China has the market cornered in many areas, basically has the developed world by the short ones.
Quick: Name the 3 largest Chinese suppliers of discrete components. Here’s a tip: If your concretes are coming from China, you’re doing it wrong because there are pretty much no reliable discrete manufacturers in China. The right thing to do is to source quality from another country … or pay the toll on the cheap ass crap.
Intel is the odd one having fabs in the USA, but that’s easy to do when you sell $300 i7’s and $1000 Xeons. It won’t fly for other stuff. Everybody else (Samsung, TSMC, etc — too many to list) are in Taiwan/China/South Korea/Malaysia/Japan and the like.
It’s questionable if the US is a part of the developed world. In the eyes of many europeans it’s very much a developing country.
Not really… this will have zero effect. US made products in low production runs are much more than 25% more expensive. And in most cases low production runs is all you can do in the USA…. because most manufacturers don’t have enough equipment and would rather turn down large thin margin runs than turn away all the NRE and short run profits they could be running on that same equipment.
That said I buy small runs of assembled PCBs from American Circuits in Charlotte NC, really great guys especially Vic the owner…. they really go the extra mile to make sure they deliver on time and go above and beyond to make sure their customers are happy. It’s a little more expensive (say $20 bucks for something roughly the complexity of an arduino) while china can do it for like $8-10 in volume maybe less but its worth it for my use case because I know if there is a problem with the batch I can just send it back to them and they’ll work with me to fix it.
As far as buying PCBs from china… is it really going to affect me if my protype PCBs go from $15 to o $20…. that certainly isn’t going to make me jump over to the next cheapest US based service that is about $140 for the same boards…. less of them actually.
Fun Fact: Tariffs don’t make domestic products cheaper or better.
American-made won’t be any cheaper, so foreign-made will still be cheaper than American, just more expensive than it was. Nobody’s going to switch to domestic just because foreign has become somewhat less cheap, because they’ll continue to buy what’s cheapest.Manufacturing won’t move back to America because firms know nobody’s going to pay even more.
End Result: American consumers pay more, the US government gets even more money (still not enough to offset the expense of Trump’s golfing), small businesses that can’t handle a 25% increase in expenses will downsize or close, and our precious few exports will be diminished by retaliatory tariffs.
I understand economics, history, math, and basic logic are difficult for members of certain political parties, but if you take some time to read up on the subject instead of listening to radio pundits and politicians, you’ll gain a deeper understanding of these issues.
People only want ‘the cheapest’ because that’s all they can afford. The whole financial industry is built around dragging everyone into debt and the larger then debt (and quicker they are dragged into it) the more profitable the financial industry gets.
If we took the manipulation of finance out of the equation then the playing field would self-level, people would purchase the best that they could afford rather than ‘all’ that they can afford.
It would raise standards across the board – at the expense of the financial industry.
So you know that what I propose will never happen……
I have no expertise in manufacturing, but I would be surprised if you could make capacitors in the US for only 25% more than it costs to make them in China. I would also imagine the capital investment necessary to produce them would be significant; unless one had great confidence in the long-term reliability and predictability of the situation.
The manufacture of capacitors and most all mass produced electronics is hands off, and fully automated. Whatever the person working in the cleanroom is paid is very small next to the cost of the equipment, and how much money each reel of parts is worth (hundreds to thousands).
Here is a video of Kemet demoing their production line.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFEYuaY35Vo
Thing is that isn’t going to happen.This all began as a war on US labor. A war that was waged by exporting manufacturing capabilities. Any on investing in restoring those capabilities back into the US will expect a ROI comparable at that investment could earn. Those who now earn a profit by importing goods into the USA will fight restoring restoring production in the USA. One would think they would restore production, but IMO their disrespect for US labor( and labor in general) would keep them from doing so
“Good, now more American manufacturers can step up to the plate, produce and employ locally, keeping the money in the local economy.”
Ok. And who is going to invest all those billions to get these manufacturers up to the speed, volume, reliability and quality of Chinese manufacturers?
If there are no immediate huge investments in those American companies that are supposed to step up to the plate, then those companies won’t be able to step up to the plate. It’s simple as that.
I read nothing about investments in this plan. What is the Trump government going to do with all that money?
The huge tax cuts will certainly help; for some companies it’s on the order of hundreds of millions saved annually.
Not going to happen, this is the most unstable U.S. Administration ever. This could easily be gone by next week depending on who trump talks to next.
Who is it, do you think, would invest in manufacturing in the U.S. unless they believe the situation was stable?
I really hope this works but I fear it will not.
It can be but it’ll require giving companies loans to retool with state of the art equipment for domestic production of the components that have tariffs against them.
Automation can replace the cheap Chinese labor but they still might not be as cheap to to US patent laws and royalties which the Chinese generally disregard.
A US made ESP 8266 like device will likely have to use a core that is open like RISC-V or one that has gone into public domain such as earlier version of MC68K to reach a similar price point.
It is not only the Chinese that ignore patents, it is a world wide thing. All of the big companies do it and if they can do it against a small person that cannot afford to defend then so much the better.
I have been on the defending side of this and won my case but had the patent been owned by me rather than me giving it to the company I worked for then there is no way I could have taken on Siemens.
It is always best to employ “first to market” strategy and stuff the patents, they just do not do what they were designed for any more.
You mean replacing Cadence Tensilica core or the unknown Wifi IP they use?
What about their Ceva BLE IP?
Price point of ESP is silicon size and support you put into it.
The genius of Trump hits again… this doesn’t factor in the retaliatory tarrifs China ill throw right back at us.
Sell your dollar store stocks now!!!
I am not a fan of any politician, but you should really look up the basic economic principle of trade deficit.
You look at the short term. Trump’s policy will have a greater effect, quicker, on the Chinese economy rather than the US. The Chinese economy is already under huge strain and being supported by (hidden) manipulation of figures and subsidies. All Trump has to do is mess with them long enough for the local effects to make a significant difference to their attitude and they’ll cave in on subsidies allowing US products a more level playing field overseas.
#EndGame
> Trump’s policy will have a greater effect, quicker, on the Chinese economy rather than the US.
Right. The Chinese economy is swimming in money, so much that they have problems investing that money in something that’ll turn into even more profit (because countries are more and more blocking Chinese takeovers). The US economy is deep in the crapper and taking on a trade war with China is certainly not going to fix anything in that regard.
It’s the long game that counts. Building our strategic materials supplies from within will allow us a better future.
#EndGame
I think you are overstating the china’s economy. For the past 7 -8 years the central government has forced a growth rate, in order to maintain jobs and hold up their end of the social contract. the provincial government and companies have been borrowing money to support this, which ends up with gross misallocation of resources – this is especially prevalent in the property markets ie: empty cities.
Not that I think that the us plan will work, mainly because Beijing has a very strong group of technocrats. There will probably be a token motion to appease and then hope that trump moves on
“Companies can apply for exemptions” … so big corporations will be given exemptions, but still hike up their prices by 25%, using the terrifs as an excuse. The only people that are going to be hit by this are consumers and small companies.
I can’t read through the entire document. Does anyone know if there are minimum values before terrifs are applied? e.g. If I order $5 in parts from aliexpress, are they now going to hold it at the post office and make me come pay a terrif on it?
Just buy from Canada… we are still friends right? I believe we do have a trade pact in the works with China now.
Correct, and Mexico hasn’t disappeared either.
Bingo. You’re absolutely correct.
Do people here ever read or watch the news?
Mexican and Canada have been living the high life -because- under NAFTA they were allowed to act as cardboard cutouts for transhipments directly from China, allowing China to bypass import controls.
That is the entire basis for the current tariffs back and forth. More than likely NAFTA is going to die, especially after what Trudeau just did at G7.
Unlike many here, I’ve lived in Europe, and traveled across the East. There are so many sweetheart deals with even our Allies allowing them almost free, unfetterred access to US markets while having very stiff tariffs and such on US products trying to enter their markets.
Its been a sham for decades and decades, and all of them are just as pissed off/worried about them no longer getting a free pass, like folks here.
The international market hasn’t been a real ‘free market’ economy since around WWII.
@badd
As a Canadian manufacturer, one has had to _always_ prove all component origins were domestic for NAFTA exemption.
Even if you added a China made change manager IC, than the product would be subject to regular duty, taxes, and broker fees. Sorry kids, your illegal structuring plans will only work if NAFTA actually expires.
Your news people seem to be trying to divide communities, families, and investment relationships.
It is OK not to know something, but at least try not to repeat their outright childish lies.
Canada still likes you… even if we all don’t like our political clowns anymore. =)
@badd
“Unlike many here, I’ve lived in Europe, and traveled across the East. There are so many sweetheart deals with even our Allies allowing them almost free, unfetterred access to US markets while having very stiff tariffs and such on US products trying to enter their markets.”
I read this pretty often. The european equivalent of sales tax is VAT. The US has no tax named “VAT” (since it’s called sales tax), so to US persons, paying VAT across the border seems like paying some steep tariff, but its really just the equivalent of sales tax. In the EU sales tax / VAT is pretty much harmonized across member nations. In the US sales tax is not harmonized across states. If you truly want to harmonize US-EU sales tax / VAT, the EU is ready and waiting for harmonized sales tax within the US (i.e. across states) so that we can then harmonize both harmonized sales tax / VAT systems. As long as US does not harmonize sales tax internally, the EU would have to have ~50 treaties (one for each US state) in order to make sales tax / VAT transparent. Before bitching about European VAT, fix the irregular US sales tax…
I’d be careful with such a cavalier attitude with NAFTA currently on the renegotiation table. These same items could be applied to those countries as well just to prevent the 2 hop China import…. or NAFTA goes away completely (YAY) and it doesn’t matter anyway.
NAFTA going away will hurt Canada in the short term but, we were okay before Pierre Elliott Trudeau helped usher it in. So… in a way Trump is really just making Canada Great Again. ;-P
Don’t tell them the “Canadian” companies getting illegally pwned are also 48% owned by US investors.
This manufactured crisis allows US officials who are legally ALLOWED to insider trade, to game the markets to ensure advertising capital for the coming election. Thus, no one will try to reign in this policy anytime soon.
The US power structure will be getting far worse before it normalizes, as the erratic markets are getting timed by people tasked with stabilizing these things.
If Canada decides to retaliate and join OPEC to adjust fair commodity exchange rates to correct their artificially suppressed currency, than about 89% of the global energy market will become unfeasible for the US fleets. They are nice up north, but people need to understand US residents will not tolerate paying a 1.6 times increase in the fair price for gasoline.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1970s_energy_crisis
My portfolio is doing very well, as I predicted this trend based on the 1920’s pre-depression despotism driven macroeconomics of US, UK, and German trade policies. America has a right to protect its interests, but needs to get it’s house in order fast…
“בשוק סמייא צווחין לעווירא סגי נהור”
“In the street of the blind, the one-eyed man is called the Guiding Light”
I’m also wondering if my small orders from Chinese sellers will now be subject to the tariff. The last thing I want to do is to have to make a long trip to the post office in the next county to pay a fee to get my items. I hope my shipment from JLCPCB clears customs before July 6.
Visiting the post office is not easy for me to do, and would cost me more money than the price of the things I order.
Money is tight for me right now, so I’ve been spending just a few dollars a week on cheap electronics bits from china to play around with on my workbench. It’s basically the only “entertainment” I’m spending money on is mostly to help keep my sanity.
And that will cost you .15 please.
Plus the mandatory administration fee.
> so big corporations will be given exemptions, but still hike up their prices by 25%, using the terrifs as an excuse. The only people that are going to be hit by this are consumers and small companies.
Precisely. If there’s one thing Republicans have demonstrated since seizing power of all branches of government, it’s that they absolutely hate middle-class Americans and small businesses.
If your net worth is under $5mil, don’t even think about being represented.
I wouldn’t call being duly elected with a mandate of the people as “seizing” power. More like reclaiming power that was usurped.
Yeah, and gerrymandering is getting duly elected, and not actually election rigging.
Which part of “losing the popular vote” qualifies as a mandate of the people?
actually, instead of one popular vote in the last election, we had 50 popular votes, and the aggregate of those 50 was the person elected President.
So the will of the people was the person they elected–is that simple enough?
Will this also affect EU customers ordering from US distributors?
are there any big non-US based distributors for parts?
I find mouser cheaper than digikey and farnell though shipping from the UK may get their stuff through their US HQ (+they’re not exactly cheap)
Current US politics seem volatile, I guess that extra tariffs will go over soon like all the other stuff?
Only for Chinese made products of course.
But I think eventually there is a risk for everything to be hit as the trade war makes the EU and maybe also Britain do retaliatory tariffs when the US has another go at the EU.
Mind you the EU reply so far has been rather weak, for example they are like: ‘what? 50 billion of tariffs? We will retaliate with 3 billion, to make the population believe we are not a bunch of US subservient dweebs, which we actually are though’
What the EU should do is drop Russia sanctions for the amount equal to what the US does tariffs on the EU. That would be amusing.
“What the EU should do is drop Russia sanctions for the amount equal to what the US does tariffs on the EU. That would be amusing.”
I like that one.
So does Putin.
And Trump
Nah, the EU should put sanctions on the Trump businesses.
For?
Nah, the EU should stop. An All-exit. It has brought us also troubles and extra costs so that the suits can buy new suits. It’s all f* up in this world. I’m from Belgium and the EU was invented to please the most richest.
Being from Belgium doesn’t make you an expert in the EU. Given that you don’t know even the basics… Well.
i’m from Belgium, and i am very hapy with EU, without it i don’t know were i could sell my stuffs
I’m from Britain, and I’m very happy with the EU. Not so happy with the state of British politics.
And what the US should do is simply pull all of our troops out of the EU.
Then they can be forced to actually put GDP% into their own defense…
The US doesn’t actually give a fly f about the russkies. They ain’t ever interested in coming over this part of the world.
What the EU could do, if it had half the moral courage so many of its citizens seem to think it has, is drop tariffs like Trump proposed at G7.
They didn’t, and won’t.
Thats whats amusing.
“Then they can be forced to actually put GDP% into their own defense”
Are you actually this clueless?
Common belief every time “policeman to the world” and “too much defense spending” comes up as topics. Throw in some WWII “we bailed you out” to making the discussion complete.
It might be counter-intuitive, but EU depending on US for its defense actually helps US. US companies benefit from the massive defense budget with respect to innovation and technology transfer. It’s both direct (Arms sale) and indirect (high-tech industries).
EU countries by out-sourcing their defense to US are diminishing their capacity to invest and innovate. Many technologies are developed and inspired in defense applications.
US asking other countries to pay up their share can be interpreted as : You pay up for the final product and deployment cost but we own the technological added-value/edge and defense industries.
Where does OSHPark source the stuff they use in PCB manufacturing?
OSHPark gets their boards from US board houses. No idea where those board houses get their prepreg and all the stuff…
Their IS 410 compatible FR4 (S1141 170) for their 2-layer prototype service is coming from 广东生益科技股份有限公司 (Guangdong Shengyi Sci. Tech):
https://docs.oshpark.com/resources/IS-410-compatible-FR4-(S1141-170)-Datasheet.pdf
Maybe we’ll see hacks like “we made electronic components from…” and see just how creative you all can be?
“from” as in recycling electronics!
Speaking from a UK perspective, (well who am I to talk given that we’re on a national suicide mission at the moment) globalisation has its problems; manufacturing moved to China to make it all cheaper, but Chinese living standards are improving so the labour advantage will slow.
But just a few observations. In the 80s to noughties the UK found that the exchange rate for computers and hi tech was $1=£1. Dreadful! Undoubtedly this held the UK back, but at the same time it gave a boost to internal innovation (the ZX Spectrum meant we had a higher % of computer ownership at one point and ultimately it meant we invented the ARM processor). So, in theory there are some silver linings.
But generally they’re few because the tech industry thrives on sharing rather than protecting ones own interests. That’s what makes hackaday and all the contributors here so brilliant. It doesn’t have to be an either/or : massive tariffs or a thriving industry.
“(well who am I to talk given that we’re on a national suicide mission at the moment) globalisation has its problems”
Currently, the rest of Western Europe has its own agenda of self termination, as well as Kanuckistan.
The Communist party in China controls the Bank of China and the value of the yuan. They have been holding it down for decades to keep exports high. The value of Chinese labor on a global scale is several times higher. On a level playing field they would be much better off and there would be less mono-culture in manufacturing and its economic risks.
Thatcher wants services not industry. And next year you can spend 350m per week to the NHS.
*facepalm*
Not only electronics but also anything to do with casting and CNC it seems.
Timely article yesterday then.
RIP Tesla.
LEDs are made in places other than China. You might have to suffer with better quality though.
Freedom of speech means the government can’t “take you away” for something you say or believe. Hackaday is privately owned and can do whatever they want with whomever’s comments they want.
Blow it out your ass cupcake…you said “free speech suppression activities” US or not the concept applies to all “free” countries. Hackaday can do whatever they want…if you don’t like go elsewhere and crawl back into your safe-space.
Hahaha we both got moderated…fair enough, things escalated quickly
That is not what freedom of speech, in the sense of the First Amendment, is.
1A is an affirmation by the government that it recognizes the right to free speech on the part of the individual and is a pledge to defend that right for each individual.
1A is not a limitation on the government, it is a statement of commitment by them, to us.
It is not so clear that HaD can do whatever they want. If, for example, they banned gay people or Christians from their site, the situation would probably be actionable.
The two outstanding issues that have yet to be decided in the courts are:
1) Do websites fall under “public accommodation” in the sense of existing federal law and SCOTUS precedent?
2) Is political identification a trait of a class that should be protected from suppression of rights (not the same as protection from consequences from exercising those rights).
Trump 2020 and 20204!
All of the constituition is a limitation on government, not to grant you rights. You ready have the rights.
..
Congress shall make no law…
I disagree with the article’s title. Exporting manufacturing and assembly to China just got 25% more expensive.
That’s distinct from “making electronics in the US”, but we’ve gotten accustomed to artificially subsidized markets and shipping. We’ve come to think “buying components and subassemblies directly from Chinese manufacturers, shipping Gerbers to a Chinese board house, then soldering things together in the US” counts as “making electronics in the US”.
The production we do is mostly the part that requires the lowest skill and is easiest to relocate. As designers, we mostly lack the hands-on experience that comes from being able to walk into the shop and see the work being done. Our designs are naive, and evolving them in response to field data is a “do it next time I buy a $500 batch” thing instead of a “walk into the shop and do it in an afternoon” thing.
And to the extent that anyone does real manufacturing in the US, who cares when you can buy Chinese clones on eBay for 10% the cost of the original?
Can you imagine this happening before Arduoino and ESP WIFI boards.
We would be missing a hell of a lot. I don’t think we would see them in the wold today.
SORRY USA. It’s just the way your system is set up. And the same for most countries.
Shipping an ESP board costs more than the hardware. The situation is not as dire as you portray.
Of course, if we wanted to do to China what China does to us, we would just ignore Espressif’s NDA, decap their chips, copy the GDS-II, and just clone their IP and software, and make the chips here.
Bingo.
Welp my Radio builds just got more expensive because the Core of the build was developed by a company in china and it was already $17 at cheapest.
The title is indeed highly inaccurate. Making electronics in the US is the same as it always was and is. What is more expensive is making electronics in the US using parts from China. There is a big difference. The price of my Beaglebone Black has probably not changed. The price of my Orange Pi or ESP module just went up — but wait! Neither of those was made in the US!!
Does any sensible person really think that US manufacturers won’t raise their rices by 25% asap? A local fab shop guy told me that as soon as the steel tax was announced, the prices of his local suppliers went up by 25%, before they had used up their existing stock. He will probably lose his business, because the price increase makes his products too expensive.
Do many people know that there is a 25% tax on foreign trucks? And what is competition in the price of trucks vs the price of cars?
I don’t want to pay higher taxes or prices to subsidize jobs in particular industries. If anyone does, they are welcome to contribute more to the US treasury. “I am from the government and I am here to help” prop up your globally uncompetitive business.
The local steel, aluminum and etc supplier said:
“due to shortage, demand, transportation, and price of scrap and raw materials we have seen an average cost of materials increases by 30-40% as far as we can account. Since the first of this year.”
We need more American foundries to fill that demand and bring the price down.
This is all about repatriating wartime commodities in long term strategic alignment for what is viewed by the inevitable war between the US and China. The whole point is to make sure that the US has 100% in- house control of the raw materials necessary to build weapons of war. The US has outsourced these industries (including the recent EU/Canada/Mexico tariffs on metals) to the point that we would lose a non nuclear war simply because we couldn’t get these raw materials.
It’s honestly brilliant from a security standpoint, and the pieces of the game are moving again.
Absolutely.
The Western world has allowed itself to be ‘hollowed out’ as its called.
The Nat’l Sec. of not just the US, but the entire free world for the most part hinges on core production located in China.
If NK actually does de-nuke, I’m expecting China to become even more alarmed and beligerent in the South China Sea islands. In this instance, I expect the EU to simply fold, because what China did with the rare earth metals earlier will be nothing when they threaten to withhold all sorts of electronics, chemicals, etc from anyone who supports the previous UN findings on ownership of those areas.
People here are just looking at their nose, cheap goods shipped to their home.
This is about cutting the financial blood loss, and rebuilding the US into a more self-sustainable country/economy.
Yes, this may pinch a bit…
“as soon as the steel tax was announced, the prices of his local suppliers went up by 25%,”
Why would the price of steel go up unless they were buying from non-American steel foundries? We buy piles of steel and aluminum from our suppliers and the price (of steel) only went up 4% in the last 3 months. But the price of aluminum (from Alcoa) also went up 4%, so I don’t think it had anything to do with tariffs.
You obviously don’t understand business, nor do you remembered history.
Companies charge as much as they can get away with for their products. If there’s competition then this limits how much they can charge. If the competition is subject to artificial tariffs then they can put their prices up without fear. Their objective is to make as much money as possible.
As for the history lesson, putting up steel import duties was tried in the past by the Bush administration. Any ideas what happened? Steel production actually went down and it was estimated that it cost the US economy 250,000 jobs as companies that used steel in their products found themselves at a disadvantage in the world market, and less able to sell at home.
Protectionism doesn’t work. Certainly not the way the Orange one is trying it. If there’s a better way to make the US economy tank then I don’t know it.
I watched my hometown go from a booming metal fabrication hive (60+ fab shops with huge employment) to a hollow, drug infested, no jobs depression that is 100% the direct result of NAFTA.
Protectionism is different than strategic posturing.
I question the sanity of any that are offended by a person or entity exercising their right to protect their rational self interests.
I question the sanity of someone who, given multiple historical examples of a tactic being tried and having failed, insists that trying that tactic again will work this time.
Cost and selling price do not have the simple relationship you seem to think. Hobble the competition and selling price will increase, because the manufacturers CAN increase their prices. Anything which depends on the product as a component will increase in price, which will lower export sales and depress the local market also. It’s a downward spiral.
Wealth redistributionist. [Sweeney]
Failed tactics are Communism, Socialism and Fundamentalism.
This is business, and the break up of the global stalemate.
I’m glad that it is Trump, above all others, that is negotiating for my children’s future in the global space.
Steel production was going down before the Bush administration and had nothing to do with the tariffs.
As Brian said above, the cost of locally produced steel and aluminum changes very little, because the tariffs only apply to imported material.
The corporate tax cuts give American manufacturers the incentive to ramp up production and open new foundries, allowing them to meet the new demand for steel and aluminum.
We cannot rely on the enemies resources during times of war. The US must build its strategic materials resources up to the point of being independent.
Exactly.
That’s why Trudeaus statement about being offended by the tariffs, as it insinuates that the US views Canada as a threat to it’s national defense is pure idiocy.
Trump is saying that having interruptable supply chains is a national security threat, so the rules are changing to repatriate these supply chains.
Any attempt by a foreign leader to discredit this rational self interest only exposes who has been truly getting the handouts of global wealth redistribution.
Trump has therefore, and typically, chosen 100% the wrong solution to the problem. If you want to encourage local manufacturers to produce a strategic resource then you arrange things so it’s to their advantage to do so at a reasonable price. Tax breaks and subsidies are well known tools for doing this, but a little creativity should produce other methods also.
Approaching the problem this way gets you what you want without starting a trade war with the rest of the world.
As to steel production during the Bush era, the tariffs were directly attributable to the loss of jobs and their cancellation coincided with the improvement of the economy. There’s plenty of evidence to back this up (including US government reports). Meanwhile the country that claims that they are the shining beacon of the capitalist system repeatedly proves that they don’t believe in free competition.
I’m so glad the people that agree with your concepts have been voted out of office, and that our current President was elected with a clear mandate to expunge them from the international strategy.
Failures always nitpick Winners, and make excuses for their failures.
You are no different.
I don’t think you understand the concept of “a clear mandate” (scraping a technical win, but losing the popular vote doesn’t qualify), nor can you see the amount of damage that this will do to the economies of the world (in addition to that of the US).
Feel free to worship the Orange one all you like, but his approach is going to screw you over big time. Don’t say you weren’t warned of that.
@Sweeney- The Bush tariffs were in response to the large numbers of jobs lost in the previous decade due to the movement of industry out of the country. Those tariffs did not cause the loss of jobs.
If you don’t like Trump just say so, you don’t need to make garbage comments while pretending to understand international trade.
@Ted – and your qualifications on the subject are?
I’m not an economist, but I’ve spent over 20 years working in financial IT. It’s a fair bet that I know a damn site more about the subject than you do.
Well said Scott.
what this actually means is that all the imports will be 25% more expensive, and you’ll still have to buy them as they will still be cheaper than local stuff – if the local stuff was what you wanted, which is probably isn’t. ANd nobody is now going to tool up to do it in the usa instead (if they already weren’t) as nobody nowdays is going to base a long term business on a short term tariff..
The big looser on tariffs on INPUTS (ie components in this case) is the local businesses that need them to make things! If you really want to do tariffs for some political reason, it’s much better to do them on finished products…
But I doubt Trump understands.
Am I reading most of the replies wrong? Does “made in America” or “American made” really mean assembled in America from Chinese components?
You and I are the only ones that seem to get this.
Do you actually know any American firms making the components in America? Do you know any American firms willing to pay extra for American-made components if they don’t absolutely have to? I assume such firms are also pretty free and generous with their pay packages at all employee levels.
Lift the hood on the average vehicle and count all the different countries.
Everywhere is America, in the Ramstein “We’re All Living in Amerika” sense.
Ergo, all products in the world are “made in America” / “American made”.
I sometime see identical products in Chinese and US web shops, with the only difference being the “made in the US” sticker. I would not even put money on the sticker itself being made in the US.
Each war will make victims.Usually not the people that actually benefit from winning
Good luck. Hopefully the EU will keep their head cool.
I’ve always been a bit uncomfortably suspicious that all those aliExpress parts we order have been “bypassing” any existing customs/tariffs that probably ought to be paid. Probably no one cares about $100 here and there, but if you start talking consumer quantities (10k+?) you might not be able to get those prices any more…
Surprise! All your parts are now from Thailand or Vietnam or….or…. Columbia or…Ireland…. Yeah…that’s the ticket.
For 25% there will be relabeling galore, just as there has been for the last 20+ years on everything else coming through NAFTA ports.
Also, just watch what happens when China quits buying grain.
Some of the biggest losers from China’s economic rise were countries like Thailand,Malaysia,and Mexico.
I’d expect to see a lot of the production for components to move back to those regions vs to the US.
As for China to quit buying US grain good luck keeping your people fed.
Exactly. And the US would subsidize grain to help our farmers, So in the long run it won’t matter if China buys or not.
The US can spend the electronics import tax to subsidize there farmers and China can spend the grain import tax to subsidize there electronics manufacturers.
I find wars using food are the height of pettiness.
Better to starve them into submission than vaporizing them in nuclear fire. Starving people revolt from the inside.
Their people will not like the cost of grain from Brazil, Argentina , Russia who would be their fall back assuming those countries can grow and export enough. Soy gets fed to pigs, its a cattle feed.
It is beyond insane that the Chinese govt would put tariffs on imported cheap food that can’t be replaced domestically, but I guess they think that will hurt Trump and his allies politically. If this drags on,I’d term elections might be interesting.
I look forward to cheaper food prices in the US if China won’t buy the stuff.
This is all negotiating. We are not ised to it because we typically bend over in trade negotiations.
Right. Nothing is gonna get built in the USA either ways. The big players like Apple will be getting exemptions (to the rich stay rich!), medium businesses will get hit minimally (get it re-shipped from elsewhere, and some moved to other 3rd world countries), and the small companies will be hit very hard. If anything comes back to the USA (almost nothing will), then that will get automated. Robots will maximise profits, and there will be no jobs created. A lot of american businesses won’t be able to compete anymore due to higher material/part prices (on top of expensive labor and power). Everything will be more expensive to the american customer as well. Meanwhile, the rest of us enjoys less competition from american companies (a lot of jobs created!) and the prices stay low for everything that isn’t american (which we’ll buy elsewhere instead).
As for China, they can buy grain elsewhere. USA is the 4th largest producer but hardly the one and only place. There will be plenty of other countries happy to sell their overproduction.
I have have half a dozen arduinos that I cannot use unless I roll back drivers due to counterfeit FTDI chips. Would gladly pay more for quality!
Won’t work. Just gonna screw Americans by making us all pay more for soo many things… it’s not going to fix anything, Americans will just spend the next tax break to cover it is all.
ID10T Error
Unless you are buying large volumes, the Chinese vendors on eBay/aliexpress usually ship your items as a “gift”, so I don’t see this affecting hobbyists much. And as I understand it, Hong Kong is essentially a separate entity from the rest of China, so does the tariff apply to items from Hong Kong? Or, if the items are manufactured in China but shipped from Taiwan, would that be an effective work around? Last I checked you can get almost anything electronic from Taiwan, south Korea, or Japan as well so I don’t really see how this tariff will matter much.
The fact that China may need to allow Hong Kong independence to bypass this would have significant effects.
Or selling fake chips to stupid Americans just got 25% less profitable for the Chinese, if they drop their prices to maintain sales numbers. Who knows what the real price-volume sweet spot is now, assuming the Chinese had that optimised before. You need to take a pause now and then Brian and think about things more deeply.
HaD has jumped the gun by a month here. In the world of Trump, that is an eternity. No need to join the crowd with their hair on fire.
But look how many comments the article caused!
And to an advertiser, all this activity indicates this is a website that is hopping!
What’s interesting is the things NOT on the list. Given how badly China has hurt the industry in the US by flooding the market with cheap solar panels, I would have thought that would have been on the list. Or did all the US solar companies go out of business meaning there is no-one left to protect?
Its also clear that pretty much nothing sold by Walmart is on this list…
It either benefited trump some how, or he’s saving that card for a future move
Ready-to-install solar panels from China have their own import tariff already, so they didn’t need to be on the list. Not sure about individual solar cells though.
The solar industry != panel builders. Those cheap Chinese solar panels have to be sold and installed. Manufacturing the panels is only one part of the entire burgeoning market. If you make those cheap panels more expensive, the market could collapse and everybody loses.
Sure it did. Y’all will believe any con, it’s really great for crooks that such perfect rubes exist.
the annoying thing with many of the comments above is that they assume only junk comes from china, where nothing could be further from the truth.
You CAN get junk form China, and you can get fantastically made quality. It depends on what you order, and what you pay!
Yes, you can get counterfeit chips, but you can get originals in proper equipment as well. Anybody who does much buying there rapidly figures out which suppliers to get things from…
The other raised is having a go at China is over IP. I’m GLAD china is ignoring the USA based IP system as it should never exist in it’s current form. It is a system by lawyers, for lawyers, and has nothing to do with protecting genuine innovation or breakthroughs. I would gues that 99.9% of the current patents should be extinguished immediately (may as well do 100%) and then start a new system that might actually work.
So I think the no IP system of china,imperfect as it is, is better than the current silly one in the USA…
– and their are too many ‘ian’s on HD, so I’ve changed my name.. :-)
What makes you think the Chinese system is about protecting innovation, especially foreign innovation? Let alone what goes around comes around when it’s time for China to start protecting their own IP.
it isn’t, that’s the point. It is a free for all – which isn’t the best, but it’s better than the usa system which is all about lawyers, not protecting innovation. ie having round corners, or buying something with a click, isn’t innovation. Coming up with a brand new drug might be, but I’d say 95%+ of drug patents are re branding old drugs to extend the patent life..
And even when a patent is OK, the term often ridiculous . Many ‘new’ things should have small duration patents (say 3 years for 90%). And even HUGE ones – say you crack anti gravity – should only be for a moderate period (say 20 years). Drugs, the real patents – not the current re badging exercise but actual new ones – probably should be somewhere in the middle ie maybe 10 years.
So if you have a ridiculous system – which the USA does – the question isn’t why China is ignoring it, it’s why the rest of the world isn’t ignoring it as well…
I would totally agree, our IP system is a joke to the rest of the world. Companies in the US cannot innovate so they litigate instead, and lobby which effectively is legalized bribery to establish their monopolies and supply chains. This is so one person can do the work, and the other 10 profit off of it by talking about it, much like the Management Rowing Race (google it). BTW – The rest of the world IS ignoring it. Just look at some of the recent court cases in the EU versus the US. The EU court side to what benefits it’s citizens. The US sides to what benefits the corporation.
Tariffs.
There will be more than just another than 25%. There will be an added minimum added processing fee of $2 – $9 per package and collection fee added by the USPS. Gone are the days of purchasing anything less than $20 from a foreign ebay or amz merchant. Not to mention the cost to the seller in time to file the correct US customs paper work (and it does not matter what country the seller is from). Or the buyer hiring an import broker to get the item into the US. I used to be an importer, not worth it under 50k purchases. No company is going to start making passive components again in the US out of this legislation, unless you change all the EPA , F?? laws as well. It would takes years at best. Then someone new gets elected and it all changes again. 90% of those china merchants will fold on ebay in the next 90 days, the remaining will jack prices because of a lack of competition. Choices will go down to. It will go back to the 70’s, a limited set of supplies (Jameco, Digikey, Mouser etc). Let’s start by building tariffs fences around states to, because what is good country must be good for the states as well. And lets not stop there, lets build tariff fences around our cities and towns too and maybe even regional neighborhoods. That should set us back a 1000 years or so.
no, 90% of those china merchants aren’t going to fold because of the usa 25% tariff. Most of the usa customers will probably just pay the extra amount, and even if they didn’t the usa is about 25% of the nominal world gdp and dropping, so over 75% of the world will still be buying… :-)
But you’re right, building tariffs could be done at the state, then city level… But I think that would take you back more than 1000 years.. :-) and if you are in a country with cotes they won’t like the drop in living standards…
Interstate commerce clause removes any internal tariff structures in the US between states.
Considering the “other” candidate,..
these tariffs are a minor inconvenience.
Chinese companies aren’t the only ones who misappropriate IP. Some big (huge) US companies have been doing that for years.
If the cannot bully their competitors, or buy them cheaply, they copy and sell it cheap/free to bankrupt their opposition. Remember Netscape? There was compression in MSDOS6. And the ridiculous patents being granted to these big companies.
Tariffs are not the solution.
+1
Remember the old old times of Neutron-Ronny, he puts a limit on japanese cars, after that the prices rises and quality lowers, and the car industry looses her competitiveness until today.
Make America loose again!
As an european I remember those years, and those cars.
Europe almost stopped buying Amercan made cars those years.
“Made in USA” stopped being a quality mark in the 60’s in Europe, and since Trumps embargo hits us too, we are looking to retaliate, problem is there is not much we buy, sure Harley Davidssons sell a little here, due to their uniqe cult of followers, who are prepared to pay more for an inferior product compared to a Japanese brand.
Same with Apple products, and we could hit Tesla too, but they will probably be excepted since we want to promote electric cars.
There is nothing Europe needs to import from the US
Tourists. :-D
Sorry but we already have more Asian visitors than people from the USA.
China uses borderline slave labor, non-existent environmental regulations, and communist government sponsored businesses to drive the cost down on electronics to put US manufacturers out of business. They will continue to do this until all US manufacturing is shut down. Should have been a 50% tariff. Maybe people will think twice before they buy that Harbor Freight Drill Press assembled by a child on a dirt floor.
Meh, China gets away with plenty. What we need to work on first is e-packet subsidies by the USPS and stop paying taxes for their cheaper shipping costs. That being said, a tariff at this point would bring China closer to Fair Trade numbers.
Wow! The USPS hasn’t received tax revenues for decades now, how can anyone not know that? Any web content of any sort that claims that taxes dollars are subsidizing anything are invalid. Of course dead bogymen are hard to keep buried. While it’s a internally subsidized by the USPS service RFD still exists and deliver ePacket that originates from countries other than China. The current situation exist because US companies where looking to maximize profits. When manufacturing on US soil was deemed not profitable then,it’s unlikely tariffs will return manufacturing to US soil.
Quote: Electronics made in America just got 25% more expensive to produce.
Your reasoning powers come up sadly lacking. What you said is nonsense. Some parts made in China with no alternative sources just got 25% more expensive once the supply line clears of existing inventory. That is not remotely equivalent to a 25% increase in production costs, which include parts made in the U.S., design costs, labor costs etc.
you are missing a fundamental point about tariffs. If china can land a part in america for $2, and the locals can build it for $2.20, if tariffs make the china part got to $3 the local part WILL also go to close to $3 – as the local supplier will (quite rightly) maximize profit.
So either way, putting a tariff on raises the local price.
So the main reasons for tariffs are
1) some type of reason that is worth more than money ie it could be food or energy security..
2) the government just wants money, and doesn’t care about anything else.
3) political games to make people money (ie sugar or pork in the usa).
4) an attempt to change trade deficits etc…
Governments tend to love tariffs as the consumer pays for them, not the government… However, history has shown that if taken too far it causes the government to loose money as well…
I think the usa is a few decades late to have a trade war, I imagine most countries are far more worried about their trade with china than they are with their trade with the usa.. I certainly know that I buy things from china weekly, and I haven’t bought anything made in the usa for as long as I can remember…
You don’t appear to understand the fundamental problem. – ” If china can land a part in america for $2, and the locals can build it for $2.20″
Why would a socialist / communist country allow imports of parts they can make themselves?
The only reason any country imports anything is because it is either far cheaper to do so, or because they lack the ability to make, or have since lost the ability to make it themselves.
I don’t get your point. If it was that China should allow imports and not have tariffs, I agree.
And if a country wants to have an industry, no matter the economic cost, the ‘better’ way to do it is to just have the gov directly subsidize the industry – it’s what happens a lot in both Europe and the USA…
I personally don’t like tariffs or government subsidies. However, I can see that for some things – ie food – you don’t want to be dependent on other countries, no matter what the economic cost is to your citizens..
Don’t hold your breath for ‘Made in America’ meaning quality. We are 2 generations out from when American manufacturing actually meant quality. We’re barely making light bulbs here…..
In the spirit of these new tariffs, the next hackaday challenge should be to blink an led with an arduino inside a 3d printed case without any chinese-made parts, including the tools used to create and debug it.
Look around you, Globalization has been quite the dismal failure. I support these tariffs. In fact I don’t think they go far enough.
US companies that want to manufacture their goods overseas, should not be given access to U.S. markets unless 60-80%% of their products are manufactured in the U.S. I’d like to see all countries enact such a law as well.
” I’d like to see all countries enact such a law as well” A great why to create shortages and hardship in your own country. such a model would prevent exporting of surplus resources in exchange for resources a country may not have.
@halherta said: “Globalization has been quite the dismal failure.”
Because it’s brought us EVERYTHING we take for granted? What part of it is a failure exactly?
“I support these tariffs.”
Because you hate America? This is going to be RUIN for small farmers and the remaining few manufacturers in America. I for one have NO interest in bailing them out when they go under. This was 100% avoidable.
are they going to inspect the mail?
the chinese are shipping stuff by mail that is how drugs get in the us as it requires a warrant to search the postal system.
so make sure to tell the seller to explicitly use the mail not private carriers like dhl, ups and fedex as they dont require warrant to open packages
No warrant is required to inspect packages that cross the border.
Customs 4TW
It’s amazing… the portrait of free trade and capitalism will be… China.
Protectionism and state-controlled economy will be brought you by… the USA
How is a manipulated currency, state subsidies intended to destroy competition and near – slave labor making China the true capitalist in your view?
Why does rational self – interest immediately equate to protectionism in your view?
US have done all that in the past, to some extent, even in a bigger scale (slave labor, undoubtedly), and some of them like state subsidies still exist… about rational self – interest been protectionism, it is if that translate into tariff to protect specifitc producers or industries, is the very definition of protectionism.
So China practices protectionism? Yes, they do.
Of course they do. Big time. But protectionism is something you would expect from them, but not from the US.
Hell yes China is protectionist. We should be too.
@ Cleveland: Ideally, neither country should engage in protectionist activities, because they’re inefficient. Tariffs result in money going to government, which uses the money to further meddle. The money does not go to consumers or manufacturers; for all practical purposes the money – which could be turned into goods and services – is destroyed.
…so, you don’t believe that a sovereign nation had the moral right to ensure its long term survival by using economic means?
Pull a plastic bag over your head, and tie it tight. See how protectionist you become of the air you so require to survive, and see how quickly your morality changes concerning this topic, and the lengths that become acceptable to get your resource back.
This is no different than the current situation. I’m just glad that someone that believed in the American Experiment was elected instead of the long line (Dem and Rep) that have sold its long term failure for short term personal gain.
I think the US is far from having a bag over its head. I believe the US has shown the world that mankind can progress and evolve encouraging individuals and organizations to do the best they can with freedom and without the goverment sticking its nose closely. International free trade is an implementation of that and is good not only for the US but for all the world, going back to protectsionism won’t make the US greater.
Can our failing public education system have the collected tariffs. Maybe start teaching US children math again?
MMGA – Make Math Great Again
First: Ensure that schools will be around another 100 years with intelligent, strategic planning of the nation’s supply chains and infrastructure.
Second: Ensure facts, and not “morally” edited subjects are taught in school, while holding both educators AND students accountable for their responsibilities in the education system.
Third: Profit from the end of Progressivism, and the attempt to emotionally edit the rule of law.
Public education? Should get back to the basics, instead of teach the kids a bunch of stuff they don’t want or need. Plenty of educational opportunities outside public schools these’s days, kids could get the basics in half a day, and the parents could provide what they feel is important. But, then again, public schools are mostly free daycare for a huge portion of the kids attending. Less than half will even consider going on to college, fewer still will actually get a degree they will actually use in their career, but not a huge benefit, since they also carry a huge student debt. Public education, the free stuff, our kids are entitled to doesn’t make much sense, trying to force every child to be college prepared, by graduation from high school. If school was only half a day, you could run two shifts of kids through there, and parents would be responsible for the other half day, maybe teach their own kids morals, ethics, values, spend some quality time. Would also sort of open up a new opportunity, either private or community, where the other half of the day, could be used in a secondary school choice, where the kids could learn something useful, in their likely career choices, instead of a whole lot of useless and unwanted, not needed subjects.
As U.S. public schools stand now, only early grades have a lot of wasted time. For those, the day could be cut short or more material taught. By 7th grade there’s very little wasted time. At that point, cutting the student’s school day to 4 hours would cause them to lose potential knowledge and skills, and would be tough on teachers working 8 hours in class plus time for grading and lesson preparation.
Even though it’s not taught like how you and where taught, doesn’t mean schools never stopped teaching math. S long as the result is correct the means of getting their in not important. So yea future generations can calculate the fees. From what I have seen of the “new” math it’s similar to the process that I independently developed to work out a problem in my mind.
I think the new Common Core math is fantastic. It is designed to help students understand numbers and their relationship to one another at a much deeper level than I was originally taught. Although I certainly understand parents being frustrated that they have difficulty helping their kid’s with math homework. And I regret that we did not have tutors set up in advanced to help students in areas where their parents might not be able to assist. Hindsight is 20/20 I guess.
Also I am against the ends justify the means sort of math. Having the right answer on a problem is meaningless if you don’t understand it. It’s like that in the real world too. I’m in trouble as an engineer if I write down an answer but I can’t explain how I got that answer. Proof of correctness is important in science, mathematics, programming, engineering, and academics.
When I was a child, most things imported from other countries, where typically more expensive than what was produced domestically. Just sort of made sense, transportation costs. But, then again, Welfare was a dirty word, an embarrassment, most people hoped to avoid, and worked hard to get out of quickly. People just got lazy, less work, means more time for fun things. work sux. How many trillions of dollars is this country in debt? What’s the total debt of the population? We all want cool stuff, but we don’t want to work to pay for it. Debt use to be a dirty word as well, but now it’s easily forgiven, without bankruptcy. The tariffs might help getting America back to producing stuff for domestic consumers, but that means jobs. I think a larger portion of the population likes things the way they are, all the free stuff they are entitled to, without punching a clock. America has everything we need to produce anything, plenty of land, resources, raw materials. A lot of our scrap metal gets sold and shipped over seas, cheap too. Sent back here, and sold, still cheaper than what we produce? I like some of the tariffs, incentive for Americans to get up off the couch, and start up a business, rather than waiting for their monthly handouts.
As a nation, we really need to get out of debt, it’s probably why most of these other countries can sell their products in the USA, cheaper than our domestically produced. Every time we need to borrow more (to give away), we have to give the lender something more than a promise to make interest payments on time. What do most responsible people do with debt? Smart people use their credit wisely, and do rack up a debt they can’t pay in a reasonable amount of time, with little hardship. Most people with debt, eventually, tune down the lifestyle, and do what they can, to avoid further debt, and repay some of what is owed. Our government really isn’t setting much of an example, for managing credit or debt, previous President, was the worst, basically doubled the debt he inherited. I think Trump is on the right track, won’t be popular for it, we will go through some tough times. Price on everything. We have to stop throwing money away, giving it away, Focus on the things we need, not all the cool things we want. If somebody does want the newest and coolest thing out of another country, they certainly can pay the premium for it.
You can make a profit, if you aren’t selling a product. Either the price is to high, compared to similar products, or the customer just doesn’t have the cash to spend frivolously. A lot of greedy people in the world, but you can only squeezy so hard, before it runs dry.
Trump has proudly referred to himself as the “King of Debt”, he has made his money through strategic bankruptcy. If you trust him to do well for the USA then I am forced to presume that “Smart people use their credit wisely, and do rack up a debt they can’t pay in a reasonable amount of time” isn’t actually a typo.
I thought that was the current USA strategy?
There is some truth, in the “Filthy-rich” label. Most of the politicians are well above the “middle-class”, elections cost a lot of money. You don’t get rich by spending your own money either. Yeah, Trump’s money is dirty, but legal, but probably not so ethical. He knows all the games, and talked about many of them on his campaign, making him very unpopular with the Capital Hill crowd, who hope to get “filthy-Rich”, in a similar manner. It is a corrupt “swamp”, that needs draining. Most of the trade deals aren’t good for the people living in the country. I’ve never been a fan of “deals” in our legislative branch, our representatives are there simply to act in our best interests. Their votes shouldn’t be bargaining currency, shouldn’t be bought or sold. Votes shouldn’t be traded, to get what they want (mostly money to spend as they please), but what’s really in the best interest for the country in general. A lot of the subsidies, grants, and entitlements need to go, leave it to the private sector to take care of the charity business. Tax money, isn’t “Free” money, with no accountability. Wonder how many billions we’ve donated to “Climate Change”, something that’s been going on for more than 10,000 years, no scientist can claim we can stop, or reverse, just maybe slow down a little. Burning stuff for energy is bad and unhealthy, why not just focus on getting away from doing that? The planet is going to keep going on the same path it always has, regardless of what we try to do to change it, we just don’t need to live in filth.
Lowering taxes, build more weapons and adding more debt is the way to go.
Ronny shows us that trickle-down actually works for the plutocrats if there was enough voters that believes in some sort of devil.
“Energy costs in the ‘civilised’ West are conflated by the adherence to the Global Warming scam that ‘necessitates’ a reduction in CO2 (and demonisation of it as a ‘pollutant’)”.
In the eighties in my region, you could still practice cross country skiing. Now there is barely any snow in winter anymore. Let’s wait till the Gulf Stream slows down, and a new glaciation kicks in, probably a mechanism for the earth to protect itself from nasty humans.
When did America start mass producing PCBs or chips? CHALLENGE: Prove this isn’t political
The US has several chip foundries. We tend to produce very high margin devices that offset the higher overhead in America. (since we pay employees a whole lot more in the US than China). Lots of Intel CPUs are being manufactured right now in Arizona, New Mexico, Oregon and Massachusetts. Very industry specific ASICs are still made in the US (like in East Fishkill, NY) and high-frequency RF components for aerospace where certain export laws prohibit them being outsourced to China.
The tariffs will only cost the consumer, and put money in the packets of the business elite. The business elite drove production of US soil, why would anyone believe that elite will restore domestic production? Perhaps any fallout will force the consumer and labor out of their ignorant slumber to realize it’s they that drive every economy, and start acting in their collective self interests.
Instead of encouraging component production in the US, this is encouraging manufacturers of finished assemblies to leave.
if this is about dumping it isnt going to stop dumping as the chinese will set up shop in the usa and dump on the american market through the american market.
the tech parts maker foxcomm already is setting up shop in the united states and pa is one of the states.
foxcomm could just sell their parts at manufacturer cost.
or chinese companies could just take a loss
thanks obama
Who knew this thread would turn into an enormous garbage fire instantly?
25% on imported ad counters.
So many Trump dummies here. I fear for the worst. Murica is cool until it stops being cool…
i don’t know whether to feel sorry or be afraid for the US.