Within the retro computing community there exists a lot of controversy about so-called ‘retrobrighting’, which involves methods that seeks to reverse the yellowing that many plastics suffer over time. While some are all in on this practice that restores yellow plastics to their previous white luster, others actively warn against it after bad experiences, such as [Tech Tangents] in a recent video.
After a decade of trying out various retrobrighting methods, he found for example that a Sega Dreamcast shell which he treated with hydrogen peroxide ten years ago actually yellowed faster than the untreated plastic right beside it. Similarly, the use of ozone as another way to achieve the oxidation of the brominated flame retardants that are said to underlie the yellowing was also attempted, with highly dubious results.
While streaking after retrobrighting with hydrogen peroxide can be attributed to an uneven application of the compound, there are many reports of the treatment damaging the plastics and making it brittle. Considering the uneven yellowing of e.g. Super Nintendo consoles, the cause of the yellowing is also not just photo-oxidation caused by UV exposure, but seems to be related to heat exposure and the exact amount of flame retardants mixed in with the plastic, as well as potentially general degradation of the plastic’s polymers.
Pending more research on the topic, the use of retrobrighting should perhaps not be banished completely. But considering the damage that we may be doing to potentially historical artifacts, it would behoove us to at least take a step or two back and consider the urgency of retrobrighting today instead of in the future with a better understanding of the implications.
There are not much polymers that can resist a very strong oxidant like H2O2 or O3 anyway…
retrobright creates retrodust
I would consider a multi part treatment. Strong oxidants can remove discoloration but they probably create many acidic sites which can later easily yellow. So you probably need to esterify them or something similar. Perhaps cost them in an antioxidant after. Not sure but in most cases oxidants are used to age materials not the opposite!
I have an SNES as yellow as the one in the post, and it is already extremely brittle. I also have an SNES Jr that was not that yellow, which I retr0brited a couple of years ago, which is still just as solid as ever. I think the brittleness is just due to age and specific chemical makeup of the original plastic. I would definitely assume that a Sega console from just before they shut down their hardware development would have more corners cut than a Nintendo product.
I forgot to mention: I use standard drugstore 3% H2O2, not the stronger hair bleach type, but I have a fairly powerful UV source, originally designed to cure sealants for automotive applications, which I use in short bursts. The only bad thing that happened was when I accidentally forgot about my SNES mouse shell, which is now bleached almost white. It is still not brittle, however.
This everyone i have seen that has bad results (either immediately or eventually) uses weapons grade creme, applies it unevenly as possible, then scrunches the mess in plastic wrap.
Uneven application using the strongest stuff you can get leads to uneven results.
A few quarts of drug store liquid a scoop of oxygen clean top off with water is really all it takes (and some uv i used to do it in the spring time and just used the mild sun)
It’s not entirely a surprise that this is a problem, you’re not stopping or reversing the ageing process, you’re just masking the symptoms.
Like a fine coating of rust on steel is often left untreated because it prevents further, more significant corrosion forming, I suspect retrobrighting exposes fresh surface to damage.
Personally, I prefer ‘patina’ and just don’t bother doing anything other than cleaning the accumulated crud off of old stuff with warm water and dish soap, if it’s really unpleasant I might run it through a low temperature dishwasher cycle (works great for getting rid of accumulated crud on circuit boards and also cleans off the rosin flux that was applied to old HiFi and radio gear)
It’s not uncommon to prefer ‘patina’. I don’t get it though. I get wanting to experience new stuff, modern up to date consoles, computers and other gadgets. I also get wanting to re-experience the stuff of one’s youth for nostalgia, or the stuff from before one’s youth for curiosity regarding where it all came from.
But patina?
My computer and NES that I had back in 1989 were not yellow. Anyone reconstructing MY computer room from then would not be doing a more accurate job by keeping them yellowed. I wouldn’t have sat down in front of a bunch of yellowed stuff back then and thought “this is the style today”. I would have thought.. how much does this person smoke?!? I’m out of here! Likewise, your grandfather or great grandfather might have driven a model T but it wasn’t a rusty dilapidated one. Taking a good portion of one’s salary to buy it grandpa probably kept it in as close to new condition for as long as possible. Accuracy is in restoration, not patina.
Well, that’s just my ¢2 and probably overpriced at that. Have a nice day!
People who tolerate patina are not seeking to experience something pristine. They are seeking to experience something that has authentically survived and shows the effects of time.
You can buy a ancient bronze Roman coin for a few dollars. In that case I want it to show the effects of time. I want to hold it and think about the ancient people who held it before me. If it were shiny new, I would just be thinking about the person who recently restored it.
And as the article shows, removing patina often damages the object in the long run. So it’s unwise if you actually wanted to preserve the object for the future.
THIS. I have an old, early 1960’s vintage rifle that has what a firearms dealer called “a patina of value” on it; I’ll use protective oils on it to keep the corrosion down to as little as possible, but re-bluing the metal on it, or trying to remove the rust? not gonna happen.
circling back to yellowed plastics, my first thought was also “was this in a home with a smoker, and how many [packs | cartons] a day did they consume?”. If I was in the mindset of a full “make it look like it was just taken out of the box” restoration, I would go a different route and attempt to re-make the plastics using 3d printing and other techniques, and go about preserving the original plastics on it.
Surprised 3D printing isn’t more common. It has come far and people can now scan it in more easily.
Precisely, my old computers aren’t dirty with the accumulation of half a century’s worth of finger jam, snot and other assorted spooge, they look old because they are old.
I get quite a bit of pleasure out of using them and keeping them running with (when necessary and as far as possible) original parts.
I’m glad people still enjoy them but they were consumer products built down to a price and they aren’t even particularly rare now, ~50 years after they first hit the market so keeping them ‘museum grade’ or ‘rat rod’ is purely personal preference
(though it would amuse me to see how high the bidding might get on the never unboxed NOS Commodore Plus 4 and Atari ST machines I’ve been moving around various storage units for 30-40 years or so)
Well, I collect old electronics that I don’t retrobright and my dad owns a slightly dilapidated model T. I’m young enough that retro computers have always been old, so a yellowed Mac SE or brown C64 don’t really look out of place to me. Similarly, for my dad a model T has never looked new. Neither of us strive to “protect the patina” as it were, but it doesn’t really bother us. Old things are old; that’s just life.
On the other hand, my dad has a VW Beetle that has been restored and looks like new, and he has experienced what a new one is like, so maybe you just have to be there.
After the hydrogen peroxide treatment, what’s done to stop that process, and what’s done to prevent oxidation going forward? Nothing?
He speaks about that in the video and floats ideas like a UV blocking coat to hedge against future degredation.
Some folks use a UV-resistant clear-coat spray paint after retrobrighting, which should theoretically provide protection against further oxidation (and UV degradation of course).
It’d be interesting to know whether that changes the outcome vs. what we see in this video.
For that matter, I wonder how effectively we could’ve prevented yellowing if manufacturers just applied UV clear-coat to the plastic right after manufacturing.
I haven’t watched the video. Is there an example of one console, half of which was treated, half not that ended up with the treated half in worse condition than the untreated half? That would be fairly strong evidence. Otherwise, I don’t really know how I’d be convinced one way or another.
I’ve never “retrobrighted” anything. My retroconsoles are happy to stay black and fake woodgrain. Tear down, scrub as needed in warm soapy water, reassemble, play. Then assume any crumbling, brittleness, or other age-related degradation was going to happen anyway.
I mean, it’s happening to me so why should my stuff escape the same fate. :-)
That is exactly what the video shows: multiple kinds of damage on places that were treated, and both reduced re-yellowing as well as no other cosmetic damage on places that were protected from the bleach a decade ago.
Specifically, the best example is on the bottom. He taped over the bottom label, but the tape was large and covered some of the plastic too. Today, the plastic that was protected by the tape from retrobrighting is less yellow than the retrobrighted plastic right next to it. On the same plastic, on the same surface, in spots 1cm from each other.
Dying seems like a much better option than retrobrighting since it is more permanent than paint and less aggressive than peroxide. I don’t understand the reluctance to dying. Dye companies can match colors exceptionally well these days although it won’t be perfect.
If you have a solid piece of plastic with no dye-sub, then I can jive with that, although application can be tricky.
If you do have dye-sub, say a white Sega Saturn or Dreamcast, the masking process can be super tedious and the dye will bleed under the masks to some degree. You have to sort of dial it in. Retrobrighting doesn’t usually encounter this problem, which is why I’d love for it to be a better solution.
To be honest, at that point just paint it.
It’s just an old toy, it’s not worth your life.
“retrobrighting” – what a weird term. How about just calling it “cleaning” ?
Because that’s not what’s being done here…