The Hackaday comments section is generally a lively place. At its best, it’s an endless wellspring of the combined engineering wisdom of millions of readers which serves to advance the state of the art in hardware hacking for all. At its worst — well, let’s just say that at least it’s not the YouTube comments section.
Unfortunately, there’s also a space between the best and the worst where things can be a bit confusing. A case in point is [Bryan Cockfield]’s recent article on a stealth antenna designed to skirt restrictions placed upon an amateur radio operator by the homeowners’ association (HOA) governing his neighborhood.
Putting aside the general griping about the legal and moral hazards of living under an HOA, as well as the weirdly irrelevant side-quest into the relative combustibility of EVs and ICE cars, there appeared to be a persistent misapprehension about the reality of the US Federal Communications Commission’s “Over-the-Air Reception Devices” rules. Reader [Gamma Raymond] beseeched us to clarify the rules, lest misinformation lead any of our readers into the unforgiving clutches of the “golf cart people” who seem to run many HOAs.
According to the FCC’s own OTARD explainer, the rules of 47 CFR § 1.400 are intended only to prevent “governmental and nongovernmental restrictions on viewers’ ability to receive video programming signals” (emphasis added) from three distinct classes of service: direct satellite broadcasters, broadband radio service providers, and television broadcast services.
Specifically, OTARD prevents restrictions on the installation, maintenance, or use of antennas for these services within limits, such as dish antennas having to be less than a meter in diameter (except in Alaska, where dishes can be any size, because it’s Alaska) and restrictions on where antennas can be placed, for example common areas (such as condominium roofs) versus patios and balconies which are designated as for the exclusive use of a tenant or owner. But importantly, that’s it. There are no carve-outs, either explicit or implied, for any other kind of antennas — amateur radio, scanners, CB, WiFi, Meshtastic, whatever. If it’s not about getting TV into your house in some way, shape, or form, it’s not covered by OTARD.
It goes without saying that we are not lawyers, and this is not to be construed as legal advice. If you want to put a 40′ tower with a giant beam antenna on your condo balcony and take on your HOA by stretching the rules and claiming that slow-scan TV is a “video service,” you’re on your own. But a plain reading of OTARD makes it clear to us what is and is not allowed, and we’re sorry to say there’s no quarter for radio hobbyists in the rules. This just means you’re going to need to be clever about your antennas. Or, you know — move.
I remember when OTARD was coming and the ARRL was all for it, then it was published and approved. I, and others were gravely disappointed when it was found not to address amateur radio at all.
The rules ARRL and non-affiliated hams are still advocating for are hung up in Congress. It wasn’t specifically about the TV rules, but rather an expansion on the existing rules. The FCC demured in expanding the existing rule because it wasn’t legally clear they had the power to make such rules governing anything other than commercial broadcast bands (which, oddly the rule directly refers to broadcast FM, which that would include the US Weather alert band as well, but that’s not mentioned in the article). The point being that broadcast RF reception is necessary for the dissemination of emergency information as quickly as possible. The “good” that laws and rules do by restricting outdoor antennas are sufficiently outweighed by the harm and costs to people’s welfare.
However, even as a licensed ham myself, I’m not immediately convinced that a blanket law banning restrictions on ham radio bands furthers the goals of personal safety in all cases. It’s not strictly true that hams are there “when all else fails”, nor in the current industry environment are commercial broadcast TV, FM, or AM stations useful in getting information out to citizens in regional or local emergencies because increasing numbers of them are remotely run syndicates with no one on site.
Likewise, most hams are not versed in emergency communications and are just as awful as paid “expert” talking heads at disseminating false information. I don’t believe governments should be allowed to interfere in putting up antennas that interfere with communications. I also don’t believe governments should necessarily intervene with HOAs and home owners. I think that’s the wrong level. I do believe the fundamental problem is less the squeaky wheel power mad rule enforcer in HOAs, and more that HOAs should not be the only option for housing in given areas. Limit HOA reach and you solve the problem of housing choice.
Besides, when lives are on the line federal rules explicitly state you may use any means necessary to communicate distress, even if the method would otherwise be illegal. Putting up a temporary 2m antenna in the backyard even when the local laws explicitly forbid it, is allowed under federal laws that preempt local ordinances in such cases. Or in another case, grabbing an old school telephone and directly attaching it to the local street octopus is legal if you’re calling 911. If the local telecom blocks it, THEY are at fault, not you (also why there’s an emergency 911 unlock on cellphones).
HOAs are a much bigger scourge than most people realize, with an oft-cited figure of 80% of new housing encumbered by these scams.
Between corporate buy-ups of entire neighborhoods, and HOAs smothering the new ones, the “housing crisis” is only getting worse. And corrupt governments (like CA’s) are throwing fuel on it by targeting already-residential neighborhoods for destruction, vilifying “single-family homes” and turning them over to developers to build 10 units where a single house stood, with no local review or approval allowed.
Funny This article that “wants to clarify ITS ONLY VIDEO” is blatently and COMPLETELY WRONG.
From the FCC themselves:
The rule (47 C.F.R. Section 1.4000) took effect in October 1996. The Commission has modified the rule three times since then. The rule prohibits restrictions that impair the installation, maintenance or use of antennas used to receive video programming and certain antennas used to receive or transmit fixed wireless signals. The rule applies to certain antennas, including direct-to-home satellite dishes that are less than one meter (39.37″) in diameter (or of any size in Alaska), TV antennas, wireless cable, and certain fixed wireless antennas. The rule prohibits most restrictions that: (1) unreasonably delay or prevent installation, maintenance or use; (2) unreasonably increase the cost of installation, maintenance or use; or (3) preclude reception of an acceptable quality signal.
The specific amendments:
Effective January 22, 1999, the Commission amended the rule so that it also applies to rental property where the renter has an exclusive use area, such as a balcony or patio.
On October 25, 2000, the Commission further amended the rule so that it applies to customer-end antennas that receive and transmit fixed wireless signals. This amendment became effective on May 25, 2001.
On January 7, 2021, the Commission again amended the rule so that it applies to hub and relay antennas that are used for the distribution of broadband-only fixed wireless services to multiple customer locations, regardless of whether they are primarily used for this purpose, as long as: (1) the antenna serves a customer on whose premises it is located, and (2) the service provided over the antenna is broadband-only. This amendment became effective on March 29, 2021.
The source : https://www.fcc.gov/media/over-air-reception-devices-rule
JFC Do some research @Dan Maloney
To further clarify the Jan 7 2021 amendment for FWA specifically applies to INTERNET not VIDEO.
Commercial internet only? I wonder if that could be stretched to include “an” internet vs “the” internet. Say AREDN for example, or even any TCP/IP based network regardless of band.
It turns out that when legislation is done in the US, it is usually done by lobbyists who have specific motivations and those motivations are not to help your noble old hobby. Even if it’s a good one which ought to be preserved and treasured as a cultural institution.
Nobody likes to learn that truth about the world but hey, that’s politics. If you don’t like it then you have to get organized and go make a lot of people very angry until you get what you want
After reading “let’s just say that at least it’s not the YouTube comments section,” I dawned my fireproof jumpsuit and read the entire thread about the fire risks of EV. Yup, pretty uncivil, or at least too inflammatory for our community, IMHO. Um, so why exactly was this comment section allowed to explode when the article was about stealth antennas? Okay, I guess it is hard to automatically moderate when no actual “seven dirty words” were used. One hopes future AI moderators will be able to detect hostility like this. (Or it will prompt folks to get subtle with their insults.) To be fair, the Hackaday comments sections are usually pretty cordial. This was exceptional.
Remember folks, be nice to each other. If you feel like calling someone out, count to 10, then at least edit your comment to tone down your language by 2-3 notches. Your nemesis will get the message, and it will keep others from feeling like it’s okay to jumping on the bandwagon. Or write your message, but don’t hit ‘Post Comment’.
First day on the internet? There’s really no such thing as a bad comment section, you just get used to it. Lurk more.
That is what the “report” button is for and I know people use it because someone occasionally says they hit it instead of reply.
Pro-censorship post stays up, anti-censorship post gets taken down. Got it.
Reasonable take, though I’d make the comment be addressed to the community here at large, not to the mods who have the power to delete comments.
If we want to encourage a healthy community, one ought to communicate politely and kindly. At the point where outside moderation becomes the first solution, something is quite wrong, and throwing more moderation at the problem will only make the symptoms less objectionable, rather than help the problem itself.
Imho comment reporting / filtering is needed for preventing the random internet bot account, but shouldn’t be used to police opinions. I think it’s reasonable to say not permit comments with certain modes of communication (i.e. swearing / aggressively ad hominem attacks etc), but that can start to become pointed towards perspectives if you’re not carefull.
Were all still people here talking to other people; I’d love it if when conflict comes up if the first aproach would be to try to talk it out rather than reaching for the ban hammer.
A healthy community has a slight amount of dark underbelly. Every community has one. A community which has completely excised that portion is usually a sign of something much darker
Do you really seriously think that a future where AI systems monitor everyone’s communications for verboten emotional tone or “vibe” and censor it is preferable to ours where there is sometimes spicy or off-topic conversation in irrelevant comment sections? Did you take much time to think about second-order effects?
Because doing something like that is guaranteed not to turn out exactly the way you want it to
What are these seven words? I can only think of 3 that are beyond the pale?
Ale.
That’s beyond the pale – of IPA
Do a search for George Carlin – Seven words
Unfortunately the seven wordsare slightly irrelevant anymore. Many are acceptable
Yeah, I was tempted to jump into that thread with “this is why I just live in a nice, fireproof cave, parking both my Tesla and my monster truck outside”.
For god´s sake – i live in a country where HAM-Radio is a personal right and we have no HOA´s.
The only rule is that your transmissions don´t disturb other peoples tech.
Name the country, please? Some people might consider moving… ;-D
FWIW, “ham” isn’t an acronym. It’s just a nickname.
Or does it? Noone knows for sure.
The story of why my country has HOAs and yours doesn’t is multifaceted and interesting. And also probably not appropriate to discuss here..
But all that aside, I think there is probably some restriction of what you can and can’t put on the property where you live (owned or not). It’s just a matter of where the line is drawn.
Thank you. :)
OTARD is video, but there is a different rule from the FCC. They FCC ruled in 1985 and took a middle ground approach. They said federal ham regulations pre-empt local regulations to the extent that the state and local unreasonably frustrate the federal policy, including ham operations.
Quoting from:
https://www.fcc.gov/wireless/bureau-divisions/mobility-division/amateur-radio-service/prb-1-1985
—
State and local regulations that operate to preclude amateur communications in their communities are in direct conflict with federal objectives and must be preempted.
…
local regulations which involve placement, screening, or height of antennas based on health, safety, or aesthetic considerations must be crafted to accommodate reasonably amateur communications, and to represent the minimum practicable regulation to accomplish the local authority’s legitimate purpose.
So dealing with your own local regulations, the question is whether the regulation is reasonable and allows one to do ham radio or other federally licensed activity – maybe with some hassles. If the local regulation requires you fill out a one-page form to get a variance, that may be reasonable. One might attach a copy of the FCC ruling, or some quotes from it, to your request for a variance.
The operator should be reasonable in trying to help the local authority accomplish their goals. For example, if neighborhood aesthetics is an issue, that could include painting the antenna tower / mast a color that will blend in.
Basically, the FCC ruled we should “be excellent to each other”. The city can’t prevent you from having a ham antenna, they can insist on reasonable terms.
PRB-1 has no bearing on HOAs and OTARD.
So while most of what you say is true, it’s not relevant.
Please don’t cry on my shoulder, many chose, live, on a HOA, knowing , full well of the restrictions
You could always mount your antenna on the roof of your EV, that’ll get them going.
Is there a law that says an American flag can’t fly on a “flagpole” with a coupling network and 50 ohm feed-point?
That work-around that is often used. In fact Bryan (from the referenced stealth antenna article) has one. He has videos on it. The problem is they are not very good antennas. “A vertical antenna works equally poorly in all directions.” They are inefficient.
And yet, due to their typically low take-off angle, they snag a LOT of DX, and are gaining new respect for this reason. And sometimes it’s the only option available.
Not so. When correctly installed they are efficient, in fact, they result in stronger ground wave radiation (think AM broadcast antennas) and lower takeoff angle for skywave propagation. The problem is except when constructed by professional engineers, care is not taken to install a radial bed of at least 24 quarter wavelength radials (FCC regulations require 120 such radials). This results in about 10 dB more radiation especially at low angles close to the ground which produce startling increases in distant signal strength.
Perhaps I prefer to fly my flags hanging vertically from a cable strung between two poles separated by around half a wavelength of a popular ham frequency (pure coincidence of course)
Interestingly, this cartoon showed up in today’s paper
https://www.gocomics.com/nonsequitur/2024/08/30
Remember when popular science got rid of their comment section.
https://www.popsci.com/science/article/2013-09/why-were-shutting-our-comments/
I think a big part of the decline and death of the web1.0 forum and chatroom culture (somewhat grandiose term, but it applies) was the introduction of vast quantities of normal, well-adjusted people with prosocial niceties and morals who were unable to bear the realities of the comment section; to view the horrors of dis-aggregated mass humanity given pseudo-anonymity and a voice.
It’s chaotic and ugly but it’s also a part of the magic of the internet, and stamping it out means turning the internet into just another (even more annoying and difficult to use) emanation of cable television. Plus, it’s a view into the collective unconscious that previous generations could only imagine in fantasy. That may or may not be worth something but there it is
I have my EFHW snaked in my 2nd floor attic. HOA doesn’t care and encourages antenna install in the attic so it can’t be seen.
Made many contacts this way.
It’s not an ideal setup but it works. EFHW is 65 ft long snaked around the rafters.
I tried sneaking my antenna around the house and the noise from all of today’s electronics basically made it unusable. I had to run it down the back alley in between the houses.
Living in a neighbor with no such organizations and not being amateur radio enthusiast , I have two open questions for everyone who want to answer. In general, how HOA’s are perceived in America? Good, bad, annoying ? Second one: is or not slow-scan TV “video service? my common sense says as long as you are getting video on a screen from someone else… you got a video service, even if it is free, but maybe I’m wrong.
The growth of HOAs in the USA should give you some indication of their perception. If they were really hated, enough people would be unwilling to move into them that new ones wouldn’t be created. Something like 70% of new homes are in HOAs. So most people are willing to put up with them.
As for “slow-scan” TV: No, it would not be covered. The rules are more explicit than Dan suggests. Slow-scan TV over amateur radio (or CB, if you dare) is not “direct broadcast satellite service”, “wireless cable”, “fixed wireless service”, nor “local television broadcast”. Those are the only services covered by OTARD.
See the answer under “What types of antennas are covered by the rule?” on the linked FCC page:
https://www.fcc.gov/media/over-air-reception-devices-rule
But the choice for most is buy a HOA home, or don’t own a home at all. And if you don’t own a home, are you effectively buying a home for somebody else (e.g. your rent pays their mortgage).
HOAs are mandated by local laws (by cities too poor or lazy to provide services to new homes) for most new construction (that’s why 80+% of new homes are HOA’d). While HOAs are technically non-profits, they are ran my money hungry for-profit management companies that see any minor violation as a revenue source. Many (most?) people hate them and would love to be free of them. They have effectively become privatized local governments which are administrated by for-profit companies mostly owned by private equity funds. There is a desperate need for regulation and limitations here.
“HOAs are mandated by local laws”
Cite one. The actual law from their code.
Some cities make it effectively mandated, but there are no laws that I’ve found.
And you still don’t have to live there. People have a choice, and they chose to put up with the HOAs. There is no gun to their head.
I’ve told this story a hundred times now I’m sure but when we hired our realtor we only had two explicit requirements. 1, it had to have up to date electrical wiring, or at least been done in the past 20 years or so by a reputable electrician, and 2, absolutely no HOAs. Luckily where I live HOAs are not that common so it wasn’t a real problem, but still, I didn’t want to get 90% of the way through the process just to find out the house we had fallen in love with was under an HOA.
4 years later the grass hasn’t been cut in 4 weeks and the kids toys are willy nilly all over the yard and my cars are parked wherever I want and nobody give a crap. I also live as the only person on my road in the middle of a wooded area smack in the middle of my town. I got lucky in that my location allowed me to avoid HOAs. I personally think there should be a law that allows for home buyers to remove a home from an HOA after a set time frame without getting permission from the HOA, I think after year after its been purchased is a good number.
To think people have a choice doesn’t effectively realize the current situation. Moving into an area where I am, 100% of new build is HOA.
If you want a non HOA home, you are looking looking at a home that is 30 to 50 years old, single floor tracked home from the 50s, and most of those are actually already pre-sold to local developers so that when the current owner moves out they are going to gobble them up and make another planned housing HOA.
Cities love this, because the developer manages all of the public services the wiring the water the sewer and everything, designs the roads designs The lawns the public spaces the playgrounds and everything.
The city also loves it because the playgrounds that are installed in the HOA are maintained by the hoa, not the city. The grassy areas and the trees lining all of the public roads in the HOA are maintained by the hoa, not the city. This saves the cities millions of dollars, but technically it doesn’t save the residence anything because they still have to pay it for it through their HOA.
if you have a gated hoa, then the city isn’t even responsible for the streets. If you get settling and cracks in the street, you have to pay for it out of your own pocket.
HOA pool, the HOA has to pay for it, which basically means more “taxes” coming out of the homeowners pocket to the local HOA.
And get this on top of all of that, there’s another layer of profit being made, by management companies, because HOAs are volunteers from the local community, they cannot drive around and issue citations and manage everything by themselves because we all have day jobs and families and everything. So hoa’s higher external companies that do the management, for profit.
All instead of having the streets and the lawns and the trees and the playgrounds and the pools be taken care of by the city.
To sum up, unless you are in a city where the majority of housing is already non hoa, there is no choice.
“People have a choice” is one of the greatest American myths there is.
I thought Americans were against communism ?
That is what I thought. In paper looks good, in reality you need to follow the money to see the true. And we have those micro dictators owning the HOA itself and the friendly neighbor who secretly hate you, spying on you for the HOA :) I think is time to go to live to a Thailand beach, เจอกันใหม่นะ!
I’m fortunate in a way. I live in an hoa, but it’s pretty laid back; & is currently managed by a Property Management Company. No monthly dues, yearly dues are currently $175/year. When I recently had two knee replacement operations w/in three months, I called the Property Management Company & explained what was going on. Said I had made arrangements for a neighbor to cut my grass, & a friend to trim bushes & hedges for the three weeks I was in the hospital & rehab, they were cool abt it..
Wasn’t always that way, though. A former hoa President (70-80 years old) would make her daily morning rounds (still does, but it doesn’t matter since she’s long out of office). She’s pulled up flowers from around my mailbox & she’s come into my yard to pull down tree branches she didn’t approve of. Not the kind of leader who would contact the homeowner instead of firing off notices. Type person who’s never been married as I don’t any sane man would tie the knot.
I’m roughly 55-60 miles from the ‘Big Four’ tv transmitters & I seriously considered putting a tv antenna outside, but will likely put one inside my attic.
Just like governments, right? You’re forgetting about something called coercion.
You really have first-world problems, don’t you? “Boo-hoo I’m being forced – forced I tell ya! – to buy an expensive modern 3500 sq-ft single-family home with indoor plumbing and air-conditioning in an HOA neighborhood! They literally threatened to beat me with color-guide-compliant mailbox if I didn’t agree to move in!”
Millions of people change countries every year. About 300 million/year. Most voluntarily. I’m sure “governments” being hated because of the consequences of economic and political policies ranks first on the list of reasons. If you can chose to leave, you can’t be coerced.
HOAs can evict you if you don’t comply with their arbitrary demands, among like a thousand other things they’re able to do to you without suffering consequences. Didn’t know that “land of the free” means “you’re free to uproot your life and go live somewhere else when you’re being systemically screwed over”!
In response to your first question, it varies a lot. Ranging from saviors of your property values to something to scrape off you shoe before you go in the house. We wound up in an HOA area for 10 years, when we moved again, no HOA was an absolute requirement. You can guess which end of the range we can be found at…
Second question, might be able to push slow scan TV as a video service, but it would probably take a lot of expensive lawyer time and some good luck.
Thank you BobH and Gamma Raymond! I’m pretty sure I’m not the only one that think having someone telling you what to do or not in your property is … weird, and a red flag appears in my mind. But then of course the social being in me is like: ho well is the Goverment, it is for the community ,for good, so I go social. But the feeling is there. Same when you go walking in the park and you see a super duper hot sexy woman walking in front of you, what do you think, what do you do and what you don’t do? so you go social! but the feeling is there :) maybe it is just I’m so honest with myself.
How they’re used, and the impact that creates for their members, varies a lot by state. They are almost never created in pre-existing neighborhoods, and that right there says a lot about their desirability. In some states, they are effectively required for new development, in others they reduce the amount of infrastructure a developer needs to build.
Historically, few neighborhoods were master-planned communities, and those neighborhoods were the only to have HOAs. Building housing became much more regulated in the mid 90’s, and continued to increases in regulation since, so the era of small builders and even families literally building their own home is long over, as only large builders can absorb the costs and complexities of compliance.
The older master-planned neighborhoods have the most militant HOA boards, as the original residents had sought out a uniform neighborhood when they weren’t otherwise common. In newer neighborhoods, it’s a hit and miss weather the HOA is mostly forgotten about or is taken over by micromanagers.
Regardless of whether or not an individual HOA is micromanaged, they do put a financial burden on the members, both from the cost of administrating the HOA itself, as well as the cost of maintaining common property.
Also, HOA proponents claim that by increasing curb appeal, HOAs keep up resale value, but research found that properties without an HOA increase in value faster than those with an HOA. (See: https://www.housing-critical.com/home-page-1/correlation-of-homeowners-associations-and-infe )
I wonder if a 100 ft tower with a TV antenna on top would be a solution.
“You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make them drink.”
I’m guessing you didn’t follow the link and read the Q&A because that question is answered. The answer is NO, with the only exception being if that is the minimum viable antenna required to reliably receive “local television broadcast”.
If the local station you are trying to receive can be picked up with rabbit ears, you will lose.
That minimum viable thing is interesting. In my neighborhood, the advent of digital TV meant that I can now receive zero OTA TV due to the mountain (around 500 ft taller than my house) sitting between me and all reasonably close DTV transmitters.
I wildguesstimate that I’d have to go up 400 feet to see over the near mountain to the far mountain where the transmitters sit.
Pretty sure my property footprint isn’t even big enough to support a tower like that.
I’ve thought about rigging up some sort of radio logger on a quadcopter and send it up to see how high I’d really have to go
Maybe I should go meet the guy who lives under the nearby ham antenna to see if I can borrow some knowledge…
City/county/state regulations often kick-in around 50 feet. FAA regulations can also kick-in as low as 50 feet.
I think you might have a hard time arguing that TV stations two mountains away are “local”, but probably a moot point as I’m guessing you don’t want to spend the low-6-figures on a 400 ft tower to test the rule. ;-)
Everything is a problem! No one is happy until everyone is unhappy! My only comment on the Ham Radio Antenna is: When the stuff hits the fan & he has the only rig in town that can pierce through the darkness of grid & cellphone down – He’s gonna be real popular…
The problem with this is, “when all else fails”, it doesn’t happen much anymore.
A cell company can bring in a portable tower. There are also satellite phones.
It’s not like decades ago when landline phones were the thing and cell didn’t exist.
Mobile phones were an expensive specialty item that required the help of an operator
to complete a call. The proliferation of cell phone towers in major cities gives cellphones
a reliability close to landline phones, but there are still many areas in the USA where cell
phone access is still sparse. Hence, I always have at least an HT with me wherever I go.
Or you could live in major metropolitan texas, when hit with an ice storm and areas had to lose power for several days straight, it didn’t matter how much gas was in the tank at the base of the cell tower, they ran dry because the power is out for days straight.
And this is in metropolitan areas. You can rest assured in very rural areas where one tower has to serve hundreds of miles from the top of a remote hill, there wasn’t anybody out there to fill it back up in the middle of freezing temperatures when nobody has electricity and the person who drives the truck has at home trying to keep his pipes from bursting.
The FCC Has a legible interpretation of the law on their website:
https://www.fcc.gov/media/over-air-reception-devices-rule
“Examples include wireless signals used to provide telephone service or high-speed Internet access to a fixed location”
Fixed wireless for internet service IS included, with the FCC going as far as allowing hub/repeater/redistribution sites via OTARD as well.
Note that they do impose a limit on height “Masts higher than 12 feet above the roofline may be subject to local permitting requirements for safety purposes.” so you probably can’t go build a 100′ tower and claim OTARD exclusion.
Yep and that is exactly what I said in the other article that spawned this post, AND the reason my HOA is violating the rule.
My HOA requires approval to install a satellite dish, or in my case an antenna for my Cellular Broadband Access. That is illegal as FCC case law deems an approval process to 1. Introduce unreasonable delay, and 2. Approval mean they can dis-approve.
I suspect you may not have followed the FCC link and actually read the Q&A provided there. Remedies and other information are there:
“If a person believes a restriction is preempted, but the local government, community association, or landlord disagrees, either the person or the restricting entity may file a Petition for Declaratory Ruling with the FCC or a court of competent jurisdiction.”
Have you filed? Have you taken any action?
You can put up your antenna within OTARD rules. It falls on the HOA to prove their restriction is enforceable:
Q: Who is responsible for showing that a restriction is enforceable?
A: When a conflict arises about whether a restriction is valid, the local government, community association, property owner, or management entity that is trying to enforce the restriction has the burden of proving that the restriction is valid. This means that no matter who questions the validity of the restriction, the burden will always be on the entity seeking to enforce the restriction to prove that the restriction is permitted under the rule or that it qualifies for a waiver.
Yes I am actually familiar with that and I have read through multiple case rulings thanks.
I will be doing this, just not right now.
or just drop HAM and use internet, infinite range.
Ms. Nagy, where’s the challenge in that? I think you are missing the point of amateur radio.
Through many years of direct observation, I have determined that the point of amateur radio is to talk about amateur radio.
Why wouldn’t it be? When I go to the local “cars & coffee”, people are talking about… cars!
Shocking, I know. 🙄
Curious.. You a fellow PCA member?
Sorry, in our opinion antennas are an eyesore and reduce our property values thus you may not pursue your hobby here. Besides, there are plenty of other ways to communicate with people (try twitter and internet forums),
Until, the internet breaks down. Some hams in Kansas relied on pi star, and the internet to link repeater Worked well until some ones node went down.
A 20 to 72 MHz Log Periodic would cover 15 meters through all the lower band TV (54-72). There are some (not many) TV stations still down there. The “channel” shown via digital TV doesn’t refer to the frequencies its actually transmitted at. Doesn’t qualify under the “minimum viable” clause, but enforcement would require technically competent lawyers and HOA leadership.
Actually I know of at least one exception, so there’s probably more, but they’re unusual.
“but enforcement would require technically competent lawyers and HOA leadership.”
It just requires more money than the homeowner has. The HOA will win as they have more money and can hit all the homeowners with a “special assessment” for more money to pursue the case. And they’ll make sure all the other homeowners know which homeowner made that assessment necessary. I think we’ve all read horror stories about HOAs run by tin-pot tyrants… Best to stick within the bounds of OTARD unless you have very deep pockets or are a crack lawyer yourself.
Ohh to live in Canada where we have a RIGHT to use our radio.
There are HOAs in Canada, also known as “strata condominiums” in BC. At least some of these (possibly most or all) have antenna restrictions in their bylaws.
They exist everywhere; it’s hard to have a multifamily non-rental building without one. In particular, everyone in the building has a reason to not want roof penetrations because everyone gets the bill if the roof needs to be replaced. Antenna restrictions are less justifiable when they cover antennas that can be installed without modification to common property and are located in an area usable only by the unit owner.
In Australia we have similar organisations, we call them Body Corporate, mostly used for groups of units or apartment buildings. The can be run by the owners of the units like a voted in group, or the group of owners will choose to use an external management company, basically glorified realestate managers.
The company looking after the set of 5 units next door to me has changed many time in the 17 years I have owned this place. Sometimes it’s been run by the owners who are usually easier to deal with. I have had one company as soon as they took over the sent me a letter saying they were going to replace the shared fence and demanding tree removal and many other things, but the owners had not approved the expense. They were just trying so pull extra money out of them. the owners took the company to court and got the contract canned within a couple of months. So new body corporate managers.
A comment on HOA’s. I had a freind who lived in a HOA community. He had major problems with the HOA constantly giving him grief about the little details EG: garbage cans are of the wrong color=fine garbage cans on wrong side of house=fine pickup truck parked in front of house for more than four hours=fine grass a 1/4″ too long=fine put up ann american flag=fine. So he decided to do something about it and joined the board of said HOA. He quickly learned that the board was made up of Kens and Karens that had nothing better to do than basically spy on people and fine the ones they didn’t like. The politics ran deep on this board. He then learned a very magical laywers term that the
hoa boards can’t stand. It’s called ARBITRAGE. The HOA allowed it’s board members to have different garbage cans but not the plebes who weren’t on the board. In an HOA all people have to be treated the same or it’s arbitrage and can not be enforced. It will take you a laywer and a lot of money but he got his HOA dissolved due to infighting between the Kens and Karens because they couldn’t make special rules for thier freinds. Say it with me “Arbitrage”.
I suspect you mean arbitration, which is not the same as arbitrage. That is just a way to resolve disputes without getting the courts involved. It can be good or bad.
Arbitration is a formal method of dispute resolution involving a third party neutral who makes a binding decision.
Arbitrage is profit-taking by buying an investment at a time/place that has low cost and selling it at time/place that has a higher cost.
And good news on putting up an American flag: The Freedom to Display the American Flag Act of 2005 prohibits anybody from preventing the display of the flag on private property. That includes a flagpole, which is why many hams who foolishly bought in an HOA resort to flagpole stealth antennas.
I think he meant “arbitrariness”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbitrariness
;)
Good point. I think you are correct.
Ham Radio Parity Act, 2019. HOA’s cannot prevent hams from the use of outdoor antennas, sufficient to establish effective communication. There IS, however, allowance for HOA’s to limit the style, etc. Likely no massive HF beams, but possibly a indiscrete loaded vertical or something. As per any issues of ‘signal interference’, it is up to the ham to PREVENT any spurious signals, etc. Sadly, this would likely mean lawyer fees in order to take on any ‘Karens’. Interestingly, you CAN legally operate if you are off from, but next to, any HOA property lines (you being otherwise in public space.) It is a PITA, and sadly may wind up with a “My lawyer can outspend YOUR lawyer.”
A thought… Make a mobile ‘field day’ antenna trailer, and raise your HF beams in some public parking lot next to the HOA area… They can’t touch you on that one…
The “Amateur Radio Parity Act” of 2019 died in committee.
It did not pass and is not the law.
https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/116/hr466
Another attempt this year: “Amateur Radio Emergency Preparedness Act” of 2024 remains in limbo. It is very unlikely to pass.
https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/118/s3690
https://www.arrl.org/2024-action-senate-bill-s-3690
Ham Radio Parity Act never was adopted into law
I was hoping that this article might also clarify where PRB-1 fits into this situation, but maybe that’s old news.
PRB-1 has no bearing on CC&Rs/HOAs, unfortunately. https://www.arrl.org/prb-1
All PRB-1 did was add a clause to part 97.15 of the code of federal regulations (emphasis mine):
(b) Except as otherwise provided herein, a station antenna structure may be erected at heights and dimensions sufficient to accommodate amateur service communications. (State and local regulation of a station antenna structure must not preclude amateur service communications. Rather, it must reasonably accommodate such communications and must constitute the minimum practicable regulation to accomplish the state or local authority’s legitimate purpose. See PRB-1, 101 FCC 2d 952 (1985) for details.)
https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-47/section-97.15
Shirley when people say “radio” they DON’T mean “video”?
Don’t call me surely
That’s a nice beaver.
A comment section is nothing without its bizarre and inexplicable (and often vaguely disturbing) thread of off-topic discussion that threatens to overtake the volume of all other discussion. To deny this phenomena a place to flourish is tempting, but it will ultimately anger the internet Gods and bring their wrath down on you in unexpected ways at a time and place of their choosing.
In this case I can say I am a lawyer and I can give the good advice because I’m allowed to under the law under certain circumstances and in certain places and considering this is a federal law and I’m admitted to the 9th circuit Court of appeals, the US federal court for Montana and the US federal court for the eastern district of Kentucky as well as the US Supreme Court and the international Court of trade I’d say that that covers quite a bit of jurisdictions meaning the entire West Coast all the way out to Guam and Saipan.
There’s a whole part of the law that you’re not reading that’s very important to read and I personally am not going to go read that now because it takes a while and I don’t have Lexus Nexus because I live and work abroad I don’t really need it and their coverage abroad is and hit and miss but in the United States LexisNexis and westlaw have pretty much a monopoly on at home legal research that is truly worth the use of a lawyer and they hook you on it as a law student it’s like crack you know they they give you a free pass for 3 years to absolutely every expensive service and then set you free with the knowledge of how to use the library but knowing that it is a day worth of work.
You need to read not only the regulations, the code, and not only that but the case law which goes through and looks at all the various instances where a law which is past has not thought of the incallcable variables much like I think corn some Dynamics about how things can happen in this world and you can’t foresee all the different ways things can happen in this world and so we learn how to determine a general fact pattern and the fact pattern here would be in this case HOA and their right to restrict the use of antennas for personal use of owners within the HOA and they teach us property rights is like a bundle of sticks it starts with the government grant who is the largest holder of that bundle because they can just really walk right in pay you whatever they kind of reasonably assume is the value and had some quite flexible and then you’re out.
It doesn’t work everywhere in the world but in the United States that’s where you left with here we have a direct democracy so it’s even feasible that if you get a hundred thousand people signature you could have any little change but it’s the same time the h9 or the highest level amateur radio certificate you should have a look at the questions you better have an electrical engineering degree.
Not to mention that my local chapter which is very old and sadly quite historic seems to be going through an era of nationalism meaning if you weren’t actually born here despite being Swiss and us for 25 years and you’re not welcome oh and add to that if you’re not under 60 years old or want to connect computer to anything because they’re anti computer and he young person and auntie non-native born Swiss which is kind of funny because if you’re really understand the history of Switzerland it’s one of the real melting pots of the world with four distinct languages and cultures that have somehow come together to form a consistent consensus and they’re very few pure Natural Born Swiss that actually live here anymore I mean that number is so very low.
The whole idea of swiftness comes from how you behave towards others the type of interactions you use when interacting with other socially and what’s expected of you in those same situations like we don’t fight our IRS but every state has their own IRS and they don’t want to thank you they want to keep you a taxpayer so they’re not out to like ruin you and you can actually negotiate with them recently so when I got here they were very hesitant to take me to any of these meetings because they never took American the lawyers to these meetings for this reason alone it’s not adversarial our federal government’s tax authority is weak but our state tax authority is all powerful.
At the same time are right to use amateur radios is much more restrictive and I signed up for the first test before I realized that my local Club was full of a bunch of spsvp I wish is our actual current nationalistic right when government and we have 20 or more parties basically we even have a pirate party at all find quite funny I do and they’re serious but and some of their ideas are good but they’re not really going to gain that much power for SVP stands for Swiss People’s Party.. I don’t know exactly how you determine who is actually a Swiss person and who is not in the modern era because being born here is not a good way to make that determination it’s funny it’s actually a joke that immigrants no Swiss history better than actual Swiss people and I went by UBS New York private bank as I knew the director at the time before my interview and I asked them some questions to make sure I was you know clear my Swiss history and as a stereotypical I knew more about history than the people who were from citizen themselves.
They’re even instituted a near like a set of test questions and I was with my ex-girlfriend and some guy was really hitting on a nerve and didn’t know it and one of the questions was actually wrong and I approved it to him and he was like damn that’s wrong and I know it’s wrong because it was first a question that had religious undertones and so right there is kind of an issue and then second the actual results or the question was based on size rather than actual importance so would you not consider the founding or the place where they actually came up with the whole understanding of the holy Trinity to be more important than actual square meters?
But I think I will be lucky enough at some point to pass the hb3 exam which I can take in French because they don’t have an English version and I think I passed the Swiss drone license exam in French which was two and a half hours because I have the 900 g to for kilos version and they consider that to be an unmanned aircraft.
So I’ll probably pass the hp3 when I decide to sit for it again but I was pretty crushed when this club not long after I’d had hip surgery abandoned me and an actual forest alone and I had no idea where I was we were doing a fox hunt it was my second Fox Hunt and I had found all the first ones and they really set me up and they were there and then they were and this was their way of unconfrontationally telling me that I wasn’t welcome and I’m the super nice guy and I was so excited and then one meeting the mere mentioned of a raspberry Pi connected to a system which was devised in California for emergency communications would be so easy and could potentially provide so much important emergency information it’s just was met with immediate hatred.
My own doctor calls off one of his old friends and got in touch with him he’s 68 and everybody likes him I do too and he’s always counting me great Medical Care here and they refused to tell him the exact reason why was the they didn’t want me around which means they were so embarrassed by their own answer that they refuse to tell a medical doctor any particular reason why I was unwelcome which means you know that that answer was nationalism or that I just completely ran ragged against their anti-computer element of radio and that should tell me why there’s nobody less than 60 and 100-year-old club.
It’s really sad because they’re probably a lot of young people who would really want to know about some of the historical elements of radio and and some of the real basics of radio that don’t include mishtastic and don’t include some of the digital modes and include some of the real fundamentals that would be very helpful for them and it’s a loss frankly of really important information that is going to go the way of the Wind because they just can’t stand the idea of melting computers with radio and they just can’t stand evolution I came here because I fell in love with a Swiss woman not for any of their money or a job I’m a lawyer I’m a fourth generation lawyer I probably would have been much wealthier and would have done much better in the long run if I had stayed at home but love is interesting like that and anybody who wants to get married abroad there should be a huge red sign that says attention you will probably get divorced and you have kids that spend several countries and this is going to be a real serious much harder and frustrating level of relationship then you would normally have if you stayed at home 😁❤️ thought you would learn less as well and you would probably be lesser for it.
There’s a whole lot of chapters to the story so I’ll bring it back in and just say that I’m going to look this up and try and come up with a more concise and more informative opinion about these issues because I’ve always thought it funny how much power hueys have and I can just see a Karen riding around in her golf cart screaming about some antenna I’m not allowed to use Wi-Fi in my house but the lady was nice enough to wire my entire house so I have at least four checks in each room and honestly it’s much more secure and much faster thanks lady!
Given the typos and run on sentences here, i’m not sure I’d hire this lawyer.
I wish he would not use Speech to Text.
In my country HOA’s for seperate houses in a neighbourhood probably don’t exist, at least I’ve never heard of them. Maybe for people who own holiday homes in a recreation park or something.
HOA here are for apartment buildings. They are for stuff that is legally required: for instance: if the roof is leaking, everyone has to chip in for repairs, not just the owner of the apartment that is under the roof. And for stuff that is just practical: like getting one company to clean all the windows, instead of everyone hiring their own cleaner. These days it is also required to have a long term maintenance plan and to save money for the execution of said maintenance. They may be administered by a commercial company (which tend to be small local outfits) or by owners themselves. And yes, when self-administered they are often run by retired busybodies with too much free time and not enough hobbies.
We live in a listed monument (a small town house from the early 17th century): that has a lot of limitations as well. You can’t essentially change anything on the outside of the building. No solar panels on the roof, no double glazing, no freedom in choosing the colour of the exterior.
The FCC already allows ham antennas in HOAs and forbids HOAs from restricting them. This new rule about TV antennas 📡 doesnt change that.
– KD6DWR
You appear very poorly informed, and I don’t think you read or maybe didn’t comprehend this article. The FCC does not – can not – “forbid” HOAs from restricting ham antennas.
This is not a new rule; it’s 30 years old. Where are you getting your totally wrong information?
Posts are being deleted again. Intentional or accidental?
My answers to Tony M’s questions, among others, has disappeared.
My posts too. So disappointed hackaday. “Parental advisory censorship ,protecting you from REALITY” not happy with selling your comments to Youtube, they also delete what is not aligned with mainstream. I gues they gotta do what they gotta do. This is post number 1 :)
My posts too. So disappointed hackaday. “Parental advisory censorship ,protecting you from REALITY” not happy with selling your comments to Youtube, they also delete what is not aligned with mainstream. I gues they gotta do what they gotta do. This is post number 2 of 2 :)
They are back! yay! my disappointment is gone, thank you hackaday ! you can sell my comments now :) ( me whispering… this comment is number 2 of 2 )
I have proof that just about all efficient amateur antenna for the HF, VHF & UHF, will also be an effective receiving antenna for the “strong” local over the air television signal. Therefore the discussion is moot.
AR15 is ok but amateur radio is bad?
‘Murica!
I’ll throw this in here for the Ham in an HOA who might have the time to look into your bylaws and regulations, to see if there are any punitive damages listed for having an antenna.
I put up an HF antenna in my yard, a vertical, I received a letter from the management company, I replied and then never heard back.
When I inquired it turned out that our HOA bylaws only said that the management company needed to send a letter of enforcement. It was incomplete when it came to details as to what they could do to actually enforce the antenna rule.
Win.
Check your HOA bylaws.
I am so confused as to what happened with the comments on this writeup.
There were over a hundred, then it dropped to maybe a dozen. Then back up to over a hundred, then back down. Now it’s back up to nearly a hundred but most of the original comments are gone.
What the heck?
Just thank the stars you don’t live on my country where the radio test is only available in one of our three official languages, which is fine, as I speak and read one. I passed the 2 hour long 900g to 4kg Swiss Federal Civil Aviation Drone (Unmanned Aircraft Exam) in French. But can pass the HB3 armature radio exam but if your not an educated EE, good luck with the HB9 exam.