![[rasteri] holding his HIDMan USB dongle](https://hackaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/11/retro-usb-1200.jpg?w=800)
Retro computing enthusiasts, rejoice! HIDman, [rasteri]’s latest open source creation, bridges the gap between modern USB input devices and vintage PCs, from the IBM 5150 to machines with PS/2 ports. Frustrated by the struggle to find functioning retro peripherals, [rasteri] developed HIDman as an affordable, compact, and plug-and-play solution that even non-techies can appreciate.
The heart of HIDman is the CH559 microcontroller, chosen for its dual USB host ports and an ideal balance of power and cost-efficiency. This chip enables HIDman’s versatility, supporting serial mice and various keyboard protocols. Building a custom parser for the tricky USB HID protocol posed challenges, but [rasteri]’s perseverance paid off, ensuring smooth communication between modern devices and older systems.
Design-wise, the project includes a thoughtful circuit board layout that fits snugly in its case, marrying functionality with aesthetics. Retro computing fans can jump in by building HIDman themselves using the files in the GitHub repository, or by opting for the ready-made unit.
I really dig the configuration interface. very elegant. teminds me of talking to a computer with an asr33 or vt320
Bumped into lack of actual PS/2 support from USB keyboards that ship with a PS/2 adapter – there’s something else going on and it didn’t work on older hardware with ‘true’ PS/2 ports. Had to buy a cheap PS/2 keyboard (new, only cost $9) to reset the BIOS when a CMOS battery failed in a ISA CPU card.
Having a device like HIDman on hard would be useful for those kinds of tasks. I consider myself lucky I could still order a PS/2 keyboard in 2024 and get it the next day
My problem is connecting my old IBM keyboard to modern computers. How can I creatively annoy the other people in the room if I can’t connect my clackity keyboard to my computer? I haven’t found a PS1 to USB connector that actually works reliably.
I wonder if you can you still get M keyboard-to USB adapters… I’ll have to do some surfing. The clacky old XT/AT keyboards from IBM were my favorite and I still have one in good shape in storage.
I have one of the old IBM keyboards and used Soarer’s keyboard converter to put a USB interface on it. Nice small internal Teensy board. Used a USB type B socket mounted to the keyboard. Regular USB type A to type B cable for system connection.
My favourite I haven’t been able to identify. They were on library terminal machines from the 80’s but unlike models I’ve seen since, including IBM, it had a full layout and sculpted low profile keys. I believe the mainframe was a DEC machine, but this campus also had PDP systems.
Don’t quite a few modern MBs still have PS/2 ports?
Last I checked they were often used for high end keyboards (with adapters) and I think that was the only option for most rollover for some.
Some do. But problem is another one. Power draw.
Modern PS/2 ports have gotten too weak, they can’t power original 1980s keyboards from the DIN connector days.
The DIN port (or PS/2 port in the 90s) used to deliver 5v with enough amps that it could be tapped to power external devices, even.
In the old days ports were powered from the main 5v. These days they are powered from the standby 5v which keeps the southbridge alive and powers USB and ps/2 ports. Some years ago I hung an Arduino with a 433Mz receiver off the standby so I could power up the PC from across the room with a remote. I managed to stop myself before flashing the indicators as well. ;)
Until very recently, I was still using a Northgate OmniKey 102 as my daily driver – still clacking perfectly thirty-odd years after I received it. It’s built like a tank, and weighs more than my current laptop. When DIN-5 became passé, I attached a DIN-5 to PS/2 dongle; when USB became de rigueur, I added a PS/2 to USB dongle, all with zero issues. It still works, and I miss it terribly – but I started doing Mac development alongside everything else, and I absolutely needed the CMD (aka Windows) key, and I could see no reasonable way to work one into ol’ ironsides…
This has been an issue for me too. Even before Windows really. Maybe we need to bring back the space cadet but with a key pad.
Unicomp, which bought the keyboard business from Lexmark (which had bought it from IBM) apparently still does keyboard upgrades to USB (https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/category/Repair). I’ve never done this, but I have bought two keyboards from them. I’m not sure I would recommend them or not: The older of the two keyboards I bought has a wonky ‘X’ key (it inconsistently types unless you really hit it), but this was also using the older product molds, so maybe that’s why? The newer one (the Mini M) is using new product molds, and seems to work fine.
I do tottally understand this when it comes to industrial machinery or lab equipment. Very useful here. Thumbs up! 👍
However, when it comes to nostalgia what’s the point ? 🤔
If I do replace everything that defines a platform, such as CRT monitor, media and input devices by modern stuff then what’s left of it?
I do have a Gotek floppy emulator, but as a secondary drive.
I still sometimes use floppies, too, though. And CD-ROMs.
For the look&feel and because I enjoy the technology seeing it to come alive.
If I would use a cheap 2020 keyboard with an IBM PC Model 5150, then it does both look and feel so wrong!
On an industrial machine, it’s not important. But on a PC to relive the old days?
The only reason that comes to mind are testing purposes or using an USB keyboard replica that looks like an old Model M or F!
Practical realities.
Outside the old industrial control systems he mentioned (or similar), I see no truly practical realities which involve using that computer
That’s your own personal hell then.
If one wants to use an old machine for games or whatever hobby stuff, and, in this case, the keyboard is done, and it might not be practical to buy (time/money) a working original keyboard, then i would call it “practical reality” to use this sort of device to get you going again.
Yeah why use an IBM PS/2 in 2024 with crummy RGB backlit gamer keyboard? What’s the point without the Model F that is such an essential part of the neon synthwave club beat nostalgia that you are obviously going for
Hi, what I was thinking of was more of a Ship of Theseus sort of situation.
If you replace old vintage parts one after another, then what’s left?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus
I do really enjoy vintage computing and vintage tech as such, but when we modernize everything over the years, then whats the point?
Please don’t get me wrong, using/making authentic replicas are one thing but using merely functional substitutes another one.
I mean, seriously, most don’t even bother using a CRT monitor anymore.
If they now start to replace era correct keyboards and mice with black “gamer” peripherals from super market, then what’s left of “the experience”?
That’s what I mean. The HIDMan is a cool device, no question here.
It can be used for troubleshooting, to get USB Models of the IBM Model M working on an old PC etc.
My question was meant in a broader sense,
what point it makes if users start to use it with random modern hardware.
You miss the point. Peripherals are unobtainium. They vanish much faster than the computer they come with. How much does a model M or F cost ?
Do I miss it? What emotional purpose does an system have in which nothing remains original (real tech)?
If you’re a tube radio fan, and you start gutting the whole radio and replace the internals with solid state technology, then what’s the point in the hobby?
It’s as if you’re using a Mister board to emulate an Amiga.
With exception of the custom retro shell, nothing remains “real”.
The illusion working with the real deal is all that’s left.
But if you’re going even further and start replacing the original knobs and switches, too, then what’s left at all?
You don’t even have the illusion anymore. It’s something different.
Using a vintage PC with modern peripherals doesn’t cut it.
I mean, yes, from a functional point, it does, sure.
It’s also okay for testing. But for reliving the old DOS days? How?
I mean by then you can boot DOS on a random x86 PC made in 201x, just as well.
Because such a PC has PS/2 emulation built into firmware and can use USB peripherals directly.
But at this point, running an PC emulator with CRT emulation, keyboard key “click” simulator etc. might be more authentic in the end.
Long story short, to really have the real experience, the i/o part must be authentic, too. Money or not.
This can be accomplished either by using the originals, replicas or “simulations” (look a likes).
is joshua the new troll on the block?
Anyway, there are way more machines than regular pc’s that can benefit from this thing: cnc’s, mixing consoles, samplers, film scanning machines like the Fuji sp2000 and other old machinery still toiling away far beyond their commercial lives becaus they are the last of ther kind.
my audio mixer is An Yamaha 03D and originally it used a serial mouse. I already internally upgraded it to ps/2 with an atmega168, but i will swap it with this device. wireless mice are soo convenient.
and Joshua can reply with ” why don’t you just buy a new mixer?” and then i would point out that the url on top of this screen does not start with https://doubleclickonamazonaday.com.
And yes i know certain types of person in the autistic spectrum cannot imagine that someone needs different things than they themselves need.
sigh. :)
“is joshua the new troll on the block?”
Excuse me?
I think my considerations were rational and valid.
In very simple words, I asked what the point is of using a modern keyboard on an vintage PC.
If it nostalgia is involved, then the peripherals, the keyboard, must match the vintage PC.
So if you’re having, say, a beige Turbo XT clone you also need a matching beige keyboard.
It doesn’t need to be an original IBM Model F or M, but at least an Industry standard keyboard.
One that has the correct keyboard layout, one that has right type of keys.
And no Windows 95 keys, if possible.
Cherry and other manufacturers made such keyboards in the 80s and 90s.
The beige no-name keyboards of the era all vaguely resembled the Model M.
Using these keyboards on an XT would be okay, they even used PS/2 connector (AT protocol).
An XT to AT protocol converter would be enough to use them.
Now problem is: Were to get USB-powered, beige industry standard keyboards in 2020, for use with HIDman?
The USB keyboards produced these days nolonger look and feel like in the 90s.
Modern keyboards are typically slim, black and small.
They don’t fit the aforementioned Turbo XT Clone.
At this point, wouldn’t it be better to just build a new retro keyboard from scratch that looks like a classic Cherry or IBM?
“And yes i know certain types of person in the autistic spectrum cannot imagine that someone needs different things than they themselves need.”
Ah, I see! Now I get it! 😅
If I have a C64 with a broken keyboard then it’s best to be replaced by a converter and a Macintosh keyboard rather than new C64 keyboard! Because.. money. Now I get it! That’s the spirit! Thanks, man!
I just like using my pre-PS2 sculpted/ergonomic keyboard on newer PCs.
I model M? Maybe $75. I just got a 5 pack of early to mid 90s ps2 model M’s and the are sprt of on the back burner to clean and prep as i have other things to sell that are worth as much or more, and take less time to deal with.
Main reasons for hidman are :
Wireless device compatibility, since I like to play retro PC games in my living room
Optical mice, as ball mice are horrible
XT-compatible keyboards are arguably rarer than the PCs themselves
If wireless XT-compatible optical mice and keyboards were plentiful there would be no need for hidman :)
“Wireless device compatibility, since I like to play retro PC games in my living room”
Nice! I do that, too! However, the ~40″ LCD TV here in living room is running Android 6, which can run a copy of DOSBox directly (DOSBox Turbo, Magic DOSBox).
It also has a free USB port that I use for a wireless keyboard/mouse combo. Very useful for normal Android use, too.
Here in DOSBox I’m using a HDD disk image with MS-DOS 6.22 that auto-boots on start-up (dosbox.conf has autoexec section).
Speedwise, it’s on 386SX level. Good enough for Windows 3.1 and some MCGA games.
CH559 is a brilliant piece of Chinesium. Many people here are quick to use this word in a pejorative way, I think they are just upset at the possibility of / cannot appreciate real cheap quality hardware. The kind of people who need a brick in what they buy to feel the “quality”.
Yes, like [rasteri] i enjoy cheap microcontrollers that just do the job for a couple of bucks. And there are not that much that provide USB Host functionality at that price !
And what is good with cheap Chinese chips: counterfeiting them is moot, The are almost sold at cost, so you don´t get counterfeit Chinese chips.
Very interesting project. I’ve had a concept of a plan to do this for the old Acorn keyboard and quadrature mouse combo for a few years, as mine went missing in a house move. This might just be the giant to stand on!
Only thing I miss from that era is the IBM M 1391 keyboard. I kept one as a memento of my first job (they closed the plant duh) until my wife made me throw it away.
I wonder if it can be easily enough adapted to support quadrature mice. Obviously, it would need a different port with 6+ GPIOs, which are hopefully still available on the MCU.
I forgot something. It would be really neat if the HIDman adds support for USB hubs (if it doesn’t already supports it).
That’s because some of latest boring beige keyboards had been used n insurance sector and at the doctors.
These USB keyboards thus contain a chip card reader, so there must be an USB hub built-in.
If they are anything like the classic POS kb magstripe readers, it will just send the raw data as a keyboard input.
Did someone say 5150? I’ll be there yesterday!