Age-verification has been a topic of hot debate recently, with many in the community feeling that keeping kids safe online is better handled by the parents. But what does that look like these days? [EposVox] has been working on a child-safe laptop to try and solve the problem, but depending on how you look at it, it also shows why non-technical people may feel they need the government involved.
His setup may seem simple to many readers — a carefully curated selection of edutainment apps running under Kubuntu on an old laptop. We particularly like his choice not to give access to the applications menu, but give himself a hotkey for the terminal if he needs to access something outside of the curated selection of software. Most things are local, though some browser games and cloud tools are made available via Vivaldi’s app mode. In this case there is no actual browser access for junior just yet, as the child in question is seven years old.
All in all, it sounds like less than an hour to set up. Assuming you’ve got experience with desktop Linux, anyway. Consider, though that it took [EposVox] an entire day just to get Kubuntu installed, and you begin to see why the average person might look kindly on a politician offering to solve these problems for them. For those that need it, [EposVox] points out some Windows-based alternatives for childproofing your PC, including the absolute minimum of DNS filtering. But the same problem applies: how many people outside our bubble know how to set that up?
While there’s an argument to be made that the sort of age-verification laws being passed are examples of government overreach, these laws aren’t facing a lot of push-back because most people aren’t technically literate enough to realize the problems with them. They like the idea of their kids being protected, and they don’t know how to set up an old PC the way [EposVox] does here.
It’s a real shame, especially considering that none of this is new. We featured a kid-friendly, Windows-based computer setup years ago. But it is what it is. Hopefully these sorts of hacks don’t end with the roll-out of age verification, because it’s a much better way to do it.
Protecting kids in the first grade age group is still simple enough. But for teenagers, completely blocking internet browsing is not much of a solution.
I keep thinking if it’s even possible to make a child proof computer for this age group. After they learn to read, it’s just a matter of time they figure out the system.
The question is not if they can get out (because you can easily make it impossible for them to get out, look at how Google or Apple can keep adults jailed in their walled garden), but what happens if they do. If you are responsible, you prepare them for the garbage they’ll find in the web, not try to prevent them to see it. Same as you should prepare them for the garbage they’ll see outside the house and in the world.
It depends.
Give them a site whitelist of sites and apps that cannot be changed without root. They won’t break out of that. But… you will no doubt miss positive things in that list which might have benefitted the kid. Maybe even things the parents wanted them to have. You will never make everyone happy.
Use a blacklist instead. You are going to miss stuff. The kid might even find something that can be used as a proxy to even get to the blacklisted stuff.
Use an AI. You are open to all sorts of false positives and negatives.
So, yah. Lock everything down tight with a whitelist and keep the root keys to yourself and you can keep the kids locked down. But you won’t likely be happy with the result.
Do you know many that would solder on a jtag header and hack it via that route?
if my kid did that I wouldn’t even be mad. The main concern I have is the bad habits TBH – doomscrolling, believing everything you see cause “influencers” etc.
i know when i was a kid, i had this old ibm computer. it had the complete ibm dos manual with it. ibm knows how to write manuals that children can understand. i know because i tried every command in it. including the ones that break the computer. they were also good enough to tell me how to unbreak the computer. had you given me similar quality manuals for linux id have figured that out too. give them to me now, and im like. no thanks, il just use the defaults.
lack of manuals is probibly to blame for some of the modern childhood tech illiteracy. the number of adults i taught how to program the vcr before puberty was somewhat high, i just read the instructions. now they get their phones out to chase dead links hidden in qr code stickers appended to every surface. kids can be smart if you let em though.
Hi, was it PC-DOS 3.30 by any chance? Its manual is kinda cute! πΈ
Parents always have the choice to take the device. Kid protected and problem solved.
Funny how the folks in favor of this were against explicit books being removed from Elementary School libraries.
This is a silly analogy. A school library is still a selective collection. No reasonable elementary school would allow it’s library to contain a book that humiliates it’s pupils, or contains embarrassing photos of it’s pupils or even generic books that objectify girls.
They may CHOOSE to include explicit books that they feel are relevant in some way to education, but it’s not a free-for-all.
The internet allows free access to all of these things and much more, and the only realistic way for non-techy parents to prevent it is to block them from accessing the internet altogether. Allowing a 10 year old unsupervised access to social media is like sending them into a crime hotspot, and hoping they don’t get attacked. Governments need to help parents because big tech doesn’t really want to.
As a parent this is literally the job of a parent.
No, it is the parent’s responsibility, not a business’s or the Governments, and especially not at the cost of invading everyone’s privacy.
No kid needs to be on the internet period. Parents may allow it, but kids don’t need it. If parents allow it thats on them.
let me guess: you grew up with internet as a kid. you somehow turned out just fine. but now you think children shouldn’t be online.
just wow
Reading comprehension must not be your strong point.
Nowhere did Sword say kids βshouldnβt be onlineβ.
He said they donβt NEED to be online, which is very true.
Do betterβ¦
“No reasonable elementary school would allow itβs library to contain a book that humiliates itβs pupils, or contains embarrassing photos of itβs pupils or even generic books that objectify girls.”
People were really mad and even protesting when books that objectify children, promote harmful behavior such as promoting sex apps for 8 year old’s, mutilating their own bodies etc, were being removed from libraries (that actually happened, I read a few chapters of some of these books and was mortified by the contents). Things 8 year old’s shouldn’t be reading and things I don’t even think most adults should read. Explicit books at elementary schools are a terrible idea, no matter what the purpose is. If the parents think it might be a good idea to read this in private with added context, sure, but that’s not the job of a school.
“Governments need to help parents because big tech doesnβt really want to.”
Parents should think twice before giving children access to the internet. If you still don’t understand that the internet is not a safe place, then you really shouldn’t be using it. It never was a safe space, it never will be a safe space. That’s not the job of big tech. Big tech is not responsible for that at all.
Parents should watch their children, parents should raise their children. That’s not the job of the government, it’s not the job of big tech, it’s not the job of schools. Pathos is always used to pass laws that infringe on the rights of the general population. The goal, the only goal that the government should have, is to protect peoples private property. Viva la Bastiat.
Do they or is this US-defaultism?
Here in Germany, children have rights and their personal belongings are theirs.
Taking them their things away without good reason is theft, family relationship or not, being a teacher or not.
The only exception, AFAIK, is educational measure. And only for an reasonable amount of time.
Same goes for house arrest (by parents) or confinement to one’s room.
Btw: Beating or harming children as an educational measure is illegal, too. Two times, actually.
There’s national German law of 2000 and the UNCRC of ’89.
Children have rights and they deserve the same fundamental human dignity as adults. They’re no property.
Just in case some parents here aren’t up-to-date.
More information:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gesetz_zur_%C3%84chtung_von_Gewalt_in_der_Erziehung
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_the_Rights_of_the_Child
How bass-ackward. If I punish my kid by taking away something that I bought and either the kid or Government tries to pull that either we are moving (if Gov) or my kid can go get a job if they think I am “stealing” by restricting things.
Fundamental dignity… what a joke. Germany also arrests people for internet posts (major one was calling a politician a pimmel). So yeah dont think I’ll be taking queues from Germany.
Well, it’s not your kid. Not property, that is. It’s a person you raise.
But i do agree that media literacy is a parent’s job. It’s just that the tooling sucks in the internet, so the overwhelmed parents reach to the government at the wrong place; how about obligate categories, marking of LLM content, etc, so the browsers can sort the content on parenting settings?
They kind of are
They can’t be their own, they’d eat candy all day and sleep when they want
being the ward of someone unrelated, like the government, is a direct line to travesties of the worst type
They have to be the ward of their parents, that’s the only thing that makes any sense
Hm. Wait. Did the parent give it to its kid as a gift or did it lend it to its kid?
That might matter (in some countries, at least).
If was a gift, then logically it nolonger belongs to the parent and it can’t assert any claim afterwards.
Otherwise, it wouldn’t have been a true gift to begin with.
That being said, parents have custody rights and it’s their duty to help manage their kid’s stuff,
but same time children’s property rights increase with age, too.
From what I read, from age 6 to 12 parents nolonger can take things away at random (except for good reasons: if the stuff is dangerous, or for educational measure/”punishment”).
From age 12 and up it can be an violation of their personality rights and kids can technically sue their parents (or their teachers, school).
– Stuff like this already happened with cellphones and game consoles years ago, I believe.
Also, taking away something for educational measure is temporal.
And it has to have a pedagogical purpose, must be reasonable.
Plain anger or revenge doesn’t suffice. The measure must be well founded, rather.
That’s at least my understanding of the matter, probably from a very German point of view.
Not sure how things work in other places on earth, though.
I’m just a layman here, also. All statements without guarantee.
What if it isn’t their things? You don’t have transfer the ownership of the laptop just lease it, which can be cancelled anytime.
I’d bet a shiny new nickel that you would run into legal issues because the kid is considered by law to be too young to understand and be responsible for entering into a lease agreement.
This sort of thing right here is why the smart people, who want to live more freely, left Europe over the last few centuries.
They couldnβt get out fast enoughβ¦.
Back in the stone age, the earliest form of “government” was basically a descision by families in the neighborhood that they should stick together and make collective decisions to better fight off sabertooth tigers or whatever.
Now “government” is thousands of people telling you you’re not allowed to sleep in your car, or the websites you can access or not. Or what you’re allowed to legally eat, and what not.
The absolute scale of overreach is kinda insane. How long until I’m being told what to wear, whom to marry, and whom to dislike. Wait…umm
I went on a rant but i do agree, i think parents should control what their kids see online.
The “one size fits all” government model is just silly for this kind of problem. For some ultra religious parents, the evolution wikipedia page may be sacrilege that deserves to be banned and for their kids to be kept away from. For other parents, it might be the usual stuff, violence, explicit content, etc. Yet for some, it may be just the bare minimum, online narcotic sellers and very explicit content.
Why let the government tell you? You let them tell you one thing, they tell you a dozen more. There’s money to be made EVERYWHERE. Every time a bill or law passes, there are business opportunities to help with compliance, implementation or whatever. You don’t believe that “the government” will be the one operating the child age verification software on their own hardware, do you?
Don’t give them the chance
Yep, I allow my kid to access certain things on a tablet, usually kids shows via .m3u8 streams and kids Netflix. But kiddo isn’t getting a phone as a teen, and no social media.
If I wasn’t tech enabled I would simply take/not buy the devices. Its really simple. As a kid I didn’t have a phone until I could drive (yeah yeah different time/smartphones weren’t a thing/etc), but I see no reason for a kid under driving age to need a phone (yet I see it all the time at elementary school).
Depends where you live perhaps. In a city where your kid is all over the place by public transit under the driving age, being able to phone home seems good. That’s up to the parents, as you say.
Said phone doesn’t need a web browser or social media, though, and I low key am judging any parents who provide such.
Kiddo doesn’t need a phone to phone home on Public Transport, Kiddo needs a smartphone to find timetables, maps etc to get all over the city before driving age.
Kiddo’s don’t need to be kept away from all the bad on the internet, they need support and attention from parents (and teachers, media and ultimately your government) to learn how to deal with it.
Yep absolutely. Other parents can raise their kids as they see fit
you should check out “Democracy in America” – great book that talks about this trend on a historical basis
I blame the Europeans on this one. they have had good things done for them by their governments and they believe the government “is always working in your best interest”
European governments ofc ..other governments? nope.
The first hit is free, after that you are dependent on them and they own you.
If it came to a choice between age verification, and a custom user profile for under age, I know which one I’d rather implement. Especially if advancing in age is a basic “change group” Linux style command.
The usual blather of βthink of the childrenβ vs βthink of a free societyβ is a pointless argument. Better to argue which is the one true religion or the one true editor (Church of the Subgenius and EMacs, obviously).
But, if anyone needs a full day to install Kubuntu with all the guidance available online, I think any advice they give anyone is highly suspect.
An Ubuntu based install, even for someone who has never ever touched Linux should be 2 hours max. One to filter down to the best YT video guide and one to reinstall it 3 or 4 times because you picked the wrong defaults (or thought you did).
This isnβt elitist βin the bubbleβ talk. If you need a day to install thatβs like teaching someone about cars and taking a day to figure out how to fill the tank.
Nano > all
i on the other hand will go to lengths to run notepad++ on linux. winamp too.
TBH Gnome Text editor is pretty good as an ide
Nano is frustrating and pointless. Vim exists.
This throws a loop.
“think of the children” is peak demagoguery. they will “think of the chidren” when a monstrous government agency comes into being, with a sizable budget, and a staff they can appoint. who will then come up with all kinds of excuses to siphon those funds into their personal accounts in exchange for favors. they will think of the children not as victims or benefactors, but as future sheep to be extorted.
Well start shutting down websites like GBAtemp
And you won’t have to worry Bout pedophiles and whatnot on the Internet hacking your lan, remote access your lan, steal.fioes from your lan
Then brag about openly like it’s not a federal crime
Maybe don’t give the kid a tablet, put the computer right in the middle of the family room so you actually watch where they go. Use the TV as a display, every minute without the propaganda box is has it’s own benefits. You can sit of the couch with a laptop, and watch where they go.
It’s not the govenments job nor business to sanitize everything to the point we live in an open air prison.
Freedom is an instinct just like self preservation and procreation, kids will figure out a way around ANYTHING.
That’s not a bad thought, I think.
On other hand, lt’s don’t forget that children have a right for privacy, too.
So it’s perhaps neccessary to find a balance here.
They have a choice, use the internet that they don’t pay for under those guidelines or don’t use it. (Or pay for their own internet)
Kids are not adults, even by crazy Germany law. By your comments I would wager you are a kid yourself.
This is a pisspoor argument that because people generally aren’t “tech savvy” that they need Big Brother to take care of them. As a former electronics technician with over forty years experience in both electronics and computers (former… yeah, like a Marine is ever a “former” Marine) … People came to my shop every day to have done what they couldn’t do themselves. There is ZERO need for Big Brother to be involved in MOST things, much less this. If Mommy and Daddy (those still exist, right?) want Junior to have a laptop like this, then they either buy him one pre-built or they come to their local technician and have it programmed for them. Geek Squad reigned BECAUSE average population humans aren’t generally tech savvy. I, for one, am tired of the bloated, out of control, government trampling the Constitution (and I am obviously only speaking of America, here) all the while the sheep not only accept it, but begging for even MORE! It’s like the damned lamb giving the wolf recipe advice.
The controls needed to protect kids overlap with those used to block advertising and Google et al have actively undermined that. The solution is to download the internet and curate it, and yes there are some projects that do this. However even Wikipedia is dangerously biased and it influenced AI training so local AI is only half the solution. The ideal would be a locally trained AI that embodied the family’s culture and ethics that then sat above the downloaded material, a graph database indexing it, and a larger local AI to semantically search across it using that graph database. I have achieved this just in time for my kids to be old enough not to need it.
My 10yo would totally poop on this.
Im trying to convince him to play a bit with Microsoft Magic Schoolbus CDs from 90s just for kicks in his Win98 VM to no avail.
Kids these days, he doesn’t like any computer that doesn’t run OBS, DaVinci Resolve and Paint.Net.